All | CTRL+Shift: Writing practice at the dawn of the digital era

Interview with all subjects

Various Locations Across the United States on Various times | Interviewer: Devin Becker

armantrout1	[NOTE: The first four minutes of this interview were not captured on video and as such won't be linked out here. They are available on the audio recording however, which can be accessed here: http://ctrl-shift.org/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=armantrout.xml
armantrout2	Devin Becker: And there we go with that. This could be a good set up.	[0:00]
armantrout3	Good.
armantrout4	So, three parts to the interview. First part will be kind of how you're working now, with the computer and back and forth—kind of a brief short-answer questions. This comes out of a survey a colleague of mine and I did with a lot of kind of emerging poets about three years ago. It was like an online survey just to see how people are saving and organizing their work.
armantrout5	So that will be kind of a couple of pages, but fairly quick.
armantrout6	And then we'll talk kind of more overarchingly about your professional career and about how the processes for you have changed, have not changed with. Some idea, you know, with some sort of focus on how the computer impacted that.
armantrout7	Then, we'll talk a little bit about the computer in general, and a little bit about correspondence and teaching, and ask a few plunk questions at the end just to see what you think about computers—which is such a large question—but it gets somewhat repetitive at times. So, if you think you've answered already, say, "Skip it," or you know, "Let's go."
armantrout8	Rae Armantrout: About how long will it take?	[01:09]
armantrout9	DB: It'll take about an hour and fifteen minutes.
armantrout10	RA: OK.
armantrout11	DB: And if, you know, need a break at any time, no problem.
armantrout12	RA: OK.
armantrout13	DB: So, yeah.
armantrout14	So, can we begin?
armantrout15	RA: Sure.
armantrout16	DB: If you wouldn't mind stating your name, your date of birth, and the location we're at right now.
armantrout17	RA: OK. Ray Armantrout (1:29), April 13th, 1947, and we are at my home in Norman Heights, San Diego.
armantrout18	DB: Alright. So, I'm going to first ask about how you compose currently. So what genres do you work in?
armantrout19	RA: Mostly poetry.	[01:43]
armantrout20	DB: Mostly poetry.
armantrout21	RA: Once in a while I write an essay, but mostly poetry.
armantrout22	DB: OK. And what kind of devices—what kind of computer devices—do you own or have access to for your writing?
armantrout23	RA: Well, really just two. I have an iPad and I have a Dell computer upstairs.
armantrout24	RA: Oh, and I have one at work, too. Also a Dell.
armantrout25	DB: Do you use the one at work very often for actually writing?
armantrout26	RA: Actually, no. So...
armantrout27	DB: No, OK.
armantrout28	So, the operating systems are—you've got a Mac, and you have a PC?
armantrout29	RA: Uh-hmm.
armantrout30	DB: And do you work on one of these devices primarily?
armantrout31	RA: Well, actually, I probably work primarily in this old school device called "notebook" where I, you know, fill pages with illegible text, and then once I start to think that my text is coming together, very often I'll do a version of it—just type it into the iPad. And I can show you. I'll send it to myself. Sometimes, I'll send it to my friend, Ron Silliman (2:54). And you know, I mean, I like to know how he'll respond to it—but it's also kind of a lazy way of saving a record of it.
armantrout32	DB: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout33	RA: Because I send it to myself, too.
armantrout34	And then once I've done that a bit, and I have several versions, I'll go upstairs and start working on the computer.
armantrout35	DB: Oh, OK.	[3:13]
armantrout36	So, you've answered my next question—you're working between notebooks and digital devices—?
armantrout37	RA: Uh-hmm.
armantrout38	DB: —and is there ever a point where you print out the poem?
armantrout39	RA: Oh, yeah.
armantrout40	DB: OK. Will that be at a point, like, after you've reached your upstairs computer?
armantrout41	RA: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout42	DB: OK.
armantrout43	RA: I mean, I've got—well, I don't know how many versions I've got that I could show—I don't know. Are you interested in seeing printout versions, versions on here of anything I've been working on recently? Because we could do that.
armantrout44	Let's see.
armantrout45	These...these might not be versions, but I could find versions. How do you want to do that?	[3:53]
armantrout46	DB: Well, I think right now we can just talk about it and then at the end, I've got a camera, too. I can just take some pictures of that, and have it kind of as photographs—
armantrout47	RA: Sure.
armantrout48	DB: —which I think that's probably the best way.
armantrout49	So and then, how do you save your pre-writing, your notes there?
armantrout50	RA: I have a bunch of these filling up my shelves. Right now, I have way too many. A couple of times, I've sold or donated my papers to archives including Stanford and also at UC-San Diego. And when I do, I also include these.
armantrout51	DB: You include those?
armantrout52	RA: Hmm
armantrout53	DB: OK. How many? Do you have any idea how many you've probably gone through?
armantrout54	RA: Hundreds.
armantrout55	DB: Hundreds?
armantrout56	RA: Maybe thousands.
armantrout57	DB: OK. Do you always go for the same kind of size?
armantrout58	RA: Yeah, pretty much.
armantrout59	DB: Pretty much?
armantrout60	RA: I'd like it to be able to fit in my purse because I take it with me, and sometimes I write at a café, or, you know, someplace out in the world. So, I want to be able to stick it in my purse—
armantrout61	DB: Right.
armantrout62	RA: —-riding the airplane, or whatever.
armantrout63	So, it's nice if it's about this size, and it's nice if it's flexible.	[5:00]
armantrout64	DB: OK.
armantrout65	RA: And it's nice if it's not expensive.
armantrout66	DB: Yeah, yeah because you have to buy so many of them.
armantrout67	So, in terms of your digital files, what format do you usually work in?
armantrout68	RA: .docx.
armantrout69	DB: OK, .docx.
armantrout70	As you're working in those formats, do you save drafts of the individual documents, or do you save over those drafts?
armantrout71	RA: I mostly save over, which is not a good idea. But sometimes I have printed out drafts, and I save drafts. I probably do not save all of them, which is not great, but I save a number of them and then eventually, I'll probably give them to the library.
armantrout72	DB: OK. And then you're emailing them back?
armantrout73	RA: Yeah.
armantrout74	DB: So, that's sort of a draft as well?
armantrout75	RA: Yeah.
armantrout76	DB: And what are your naming conventions for your files?
armantrout77	RA: I just name it—I mean—whatever the title of the poem.
armantrout78	DB: Whatever the title is?
armantrout79	RA: Yeah.
armantrout80	DB: And then if it's a draft?
armantrout81	RA: I number them. Sometimes, I'll have, you know, "such-and-such a title one," "such-and-such a title two,"... But when it gets too confusing, sometimes I'll just erase the old ones. So, I'm not a very good curator of my own history that way.
armantrout82	DB: Yeah? And you do save some paper copies of those drafts?
armantrout83	RA: Yeah.
armantrout84	DB: OK.
armantrout85	Do you back up your digital files any way?
armantrout86	RA: Not as much as I should. I mean, I do have a back up on a zip drive, but I haven't backed-up for several months. So, I'm careless.
armantrout87	DB: And then when you're sending these emails back and forth, is it like a Gmail or some sort of something like that?
armantrout88	RA: Yeah.
armantrout89	DB: So, you could go back and find them that way in some way?
armantrout90	RA: Yeah, yes.
armantrout91	DB: So, you're not using Dropbox or any other Cloud-based—?
armantrout92	RA: No. I have Dropbox, but I am not using it for this. I'm using it for a class that I've been teaching with someone.
armantrout93	DB: OK.
armantrout94	RA: But, I could use it that way. I mean, it's something to think about.
armantrout95	DB: Yeah.
armantrout96	As a digital archivist, I might have some suggestions. Do you ever have files saved in more than one location?
armantrout97	RA: No. Well, the zip drive and the computer hard drive.
armantrout98	DB: Yeah.
armantrout99	RA: That would be it.
armantrout100	DB: OK.
armantrout101	RA: And paper. That would be it.
armantrout102	DB: And then when you're finished with a piece, how do you—is there anything special that you do for that file?
armantrout103	RA: No, I pretty much know which is the finest—the final version. And if I start to get confused, like I say, I just erase the others, which is probably a bad idea, but—
armantrout104	DB: And then what about the final version—like the books and the journals—do you save those?
armantrout105	RA: Well, what happens—this is what I do:
armantrout106	RA: I'm going to take these out because these new papers are not very significant. Those are copies that I took with me to give a reading somewhere. So that's why they're loose.
armantrout107	RA: But this is the manuscript that I'm working on now. These are really old-fashioned. These are called thesis binders. This one is all beaten up. But you can't really even buy them. You used to be able to buy them in stationary stores.
armantrout108	DB: Yeah.
armantrout109	RA: Lyn Hejinian (8:26) in Berkeley knows. I guess she has a whole bunch of them. I don't think even she can get them anymore, but she doesn't use them anymore and she has a big stack, and so, she sends them to me.
armantrout110	DB: Oh, that's nice.
armantrout111	RA: So, this is really old school. But the way I use it is, it helps me order—not only keep the poems for the manuscript, but I order the manuscript this way. I mean, I kind of decide what reads well by trying the poems out in different places—
armantrout112	RA: —within this manuscript so that I don't do that thing you hear about writers doing about spreading the pages all over the floor, or all over the walls, or something.
armantrout113	DB: Yeah
armantrout114	RA: Because I've already been deciding as I went along by where I place them in this thesis binder.
armantrout115	DB: OK. And so, will you be working on many poems at the same time?	[9:09]
armantrout116	RA: No, not usually.
armantrout117	DB: OK.
armantrout118	RA: Almost never. I'm kind of, you know, obsessive when I start something. I just work on it until I finish it. I mean, once in a while I give up on something for a while and set it aside, and go on to something else, and then go back to it. But I'm not actively working on two things at a time.
armantrout119	DB: OK. And so, just to be clear then, if you finish a piece, you would then go to your—you would print it out and then take it to this thesis binder, put it in a place where you think it may fit—
armantrout120	RA: Yes
armantrout121	DB: —with the rest that are working, and then once you have what you would—how do you know when you have a collection, then?
armantrout122	RA: Well, it used to be that I had a collection when I had enough poems for a book, but it seems as
armantrout123	RA: if I'm writing more now. So, I get to make some more choices—I get to cut things—cut a manuscript down, save some things for later. So, I get to make some decisions about how the poems work with each other and it's kind of intuitive	[10:00]
armantrout124	DB: OK. Have you ever received or sought out information about methods for digitally archiving your work?
armantrout125	RA: No.
armantrout126	DB: No? OK. Those are the short answer. And I think we did cover kind of the "nuts-and-bolts" of your current practice, so that's good. So, in this section, we're going to kind of talk about sort of three areas of your writing talk about the different stages
armantrout127	RA: Sure.
armantrout128	DB: So, how long have you been writing professionally, is the question?
armantrout129	RA: Well you know—for poets, that's a hard question.
armantrout130	DB: Yeah. How long have you been—
armantrout131	RA: Taking it seriously?
armantrout132	DB: Yeah, maybe that's the better way of putting it.
armantrout133	RA: Since I was a senior in college, really.
armantrout134	DB: OK.
armantrout135	RA: I think I had my first poem published in a national magazine shortly after I graduated from college, and then I just continued to publish in magazines. I had my first book was published when I was thirty, and I've been publishing books ever since. And I suppose that now you could say, or—hmm, when would it—? If by a professional, you mean somebody who actually makes money and has a reputation, I guess I've been in that category maybe for twenty-five years, or something.
armantrout136	DB: OK, I think I should change the question.
armantrout137	RA: For poets.
armantrout138	DB: Yeah. Would you please describe, kind of, the arc of your career? Like where you started? I would say—	[12:34]
armantrout139	(Phone rings)
armantrout140	DB: Wait for a second. If you need to answer that, it's fine.
armantrout141	RA: Yeah, let me hear who it is.
armantrout142	DB: Sure.
armantrout143	RA: Probably I don't need to answer, but if it's someone I really want to talk to—
armantrout144	Bad timing.
armantrout145	DB: It's OK.
armantrout146	RA: It ought to pick up after this, or maybe they'll give up. Of course I didn't answer. It's probably a sales call anyway.
armantrout147	DB: Yeah.
armantrout148	RA: OK, what were you saying?
armantrout149	DB: OK. So, if you wouldn't mind describing the arc of your career from when you started sort of seriously writing until now, just sort of a general overview. So, you know, just to start the interview.
armantrout150	RA: Alright.
armantrout151	I was interested in poetry since childhood. My mother read poetry to me. I wrote when I was a little kid, then I kind of stopped for a while. And then I started again in college and I was reading the poet Denise Levertov (13:37).	[13:24]
armantrout152	Oh, and I—I grew up here in San Diego, actually, and then I went to San Diego State for two years, and I was reading the poet Denise Levertov. And then I transferred to Berkeley, and she was teaching there. So, I took a class with her, and through that experience, I met my friend Ron Silliman (13:56), who's a poet—the one I send poems to, who's still a friend of mine. And then I came back here, and then I moved to San Francisco to go to grad school and he was living there. And through him and also through the grad program, I met other poets. And there was—you know, San Francisco is a good literary town. So, there was quite a community of poets in San Francisco, and I eventually was friends with poets who became—came to be known as the "Language Poets" (scare quotes), the West Coast Language poets anyway, which would include Barret Watten, and Bob Perelman, and Lyn Hejinian, and Kit Robinson, and Ron Silliman and Carla Harryman (14:41), among others.
armantrout153	And I went to a lot of readings series and participated in small press publications, and had a very active literary life—like I said, publishing magazines and journals—and
armantrout154	my first publisher was someone that we knew there. It was called the Figures Press and his name was Jeff Young. And so, that book came out in an edition of a very small press—an edition of five hundred copies, which—I gave a lot of them away to my friends and such.	[15:00]
armantrout155	And then at the end of the seventies (this was in the seventies) At the end of the seventies, I got pregnant and it just didn't seem like we were going to be able to keep living in San Francisco and raise a kid because, kind of like now—I guess it's more extreme now—but there was gentrification and yuppification going on then. And suddenly the rents were getting out of reach for us (especially if we had a kid, because you can't be so hand-to-mouth with a kid). And then my mother lived here and was willing to babysit and also Chuck got an offer of a job here that would have benefits and health insurance and all. So, we ended up back here. I was not very happy to come back here because then (and this is going to get to a topic that you like), then that was really isolating. Because that was before email, right?	[15:25]
armantrout156	DB: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout157	RA: That was even before I had a computer. So, it just felt like, you know, kind of falling off a cliff. I mean, there were some poets here and I got to know them gradually—Jerome Rothenberg, and David Anton (16:22), and Michael Davidson—but not that many people of my generation really.
armantrout158	So, I had lengthy correspondences actually on paper with the people back in San Francisco—not all of them but some of them. I can't believe it now, how much time we spent writing long letters out by hand, or typing them on typewriters.
armantrout159	DB: Yeah.
armantrout160	RA: It seems surreal now that everything goes so fast. I mean, who would do that? But we did. And so, some of those letters are in archives now.
armantrout161	And meanwhile, I kept sending work out to journals. Lyn Hejinian (17:03) in the Bay Area had a small press and she published my second book which was a chap book called The Invention of Hunger.	[17:03]
armantrout162	DB: And what press is that?
armantrout163	RA: It was Tuumba, T-U-U-M-B-A. Kind of, you know, a letterpress. And then, my third book—which was my second full-length book–-was published by Burning Deck in Providence.
armantrout164	DB: Yeah.
armantrout165	RA: So, that was my first kind of, you know, outside my immediate coterie publication.
armantrout166	DB: Yeah
armantrout167	RA: Still a small press, but—
armantrout168	—and then I started publishing with the Los Angeles publisher Sun and Moon, who also published people like Lyn Hejinian and Charles Bernstein (17:50). You know, it was a very active press then. It changed—he changed it to Green Integer, and I do have a book out on Green Integer, too—but the focus became, for him, became more re-publishing classics that had, you know, gone off copyright.
armantrout169	So, about that time, fortuitously, I got picked up by Wesleyan. At that time I was already fairly well known, at least, in the kind of small press world. I'd been in some anthologies. But I think that being published by Wesleyan and having a selected come out with them in 2001 really kind of gave my career, so to speak, a boost, and things have just picked up since then including my pace of writing. So that, since 2001—
armantrout170	—well, in 2001, I published two books. I published one with Green Integer called the Pretext, and then the selected with Wesleyan, which was called Veil. And then in 2004, I had Up to Speed. In 2007, I had Next Life. In 2009, I had Burst. In 2011, I had Money Shot. And then in 2013, I had Just Sayings.
armantrout171	So, yeah.
armantrout172	DB: Yeah.
armantrout173	RA: A spurt.
armantrout174	DB: Yeah, that's great.
armantrout175	And then during that time, were you supporting yourself by teaching, mostly?
armantrout176	RA: Yeah. When we first came down here, Chuck was one of the managers of the bookstore at San Diego State, and I got, about a year after we got here, I got a part-time teaching job at UC San Diego. At first, it was kind of on and off, and then after that, it was regular but adjunct.
armantrout177	I did that for many years. It wasn't until the early 2000s that I got a, you know, "real" tenured job at UCSD.
armantrout178	DB: OK. So, I guess, we want to kind of move in to talking about the different "spots" of processes for you and how it changed over the course of your career. So, in terms of like when you first started writing seriously and were kind of doing the pre-writing, the generative work for these poems, how did that look? What was the process for that?	[20:00]
armantrout179	RA: Well, I think, I always used a notebook. You know, I couldn't tell you exactly what the notebooks looked like way back then, but I always wrote by hand. I think I wrote by hand then—I'm sure I did longer, took me longer to write a poem, and it also stayed in the hand-written phase longer because back then, when you left the hand-written phase, you had to go to a typewriter. You're too young to know about typewriters, but they were enormously irritating because if you made any mistakes, you had to either start over or put whiteout on it, or you know, etcetera. And then, you would make a copy. I mean, you would print it out and if you wanted another copy, you'd have to type it again. I mean, right?	[20:14]
armantrout180	DB: Yeah.
armantrout181	RA: So, I mean, there's a limit to that.
armantrout182	So, you would kind of just do without when you thought you had pretty much finished version. You might be wrong, but you know...
armantrout183	DB: Yeah.
armantrout184	RA: Still.
armantrout185	DB: When you were working in the notebook, was it usually in a certain spot? Or could that be wherever you were? Was it just—
armantrout186	RA: Well, it would—I did it a lot at home, but sometimes outside.
armantrout187	DB: Outside. And was it something where you—had a line or an idea that then you would write down?
armantrout188	RA: Yeah, I mean, I often start that way—then, and still, you know. I can—just something that I hear or see, sort of peaks my interest. It could be something I read, and I'll write down a passage, or I'll write down something I overhear someone say, or even on television, I could hear something that I write down.
armantrout189	And I kind of collect those things like a magpie until something starts to take off.
armantrout190	DB: OK. And in the beginning part of your career, then, how—at what point would you go to the typewriter? Like when would you kind of feel like, "OK, this really needs to be typed?"
armantrout191	RA: Well, I guess, when I thought it was good enough to keep and good enough to maybe send a copy to someone to see what they thought, either an editor or a friend. So, that's pretty far along.
armantrout192	DB: Yeah.
armantrout193	So, would you—were you doing revisions within the notebook as well?
armantrout194	RA: Uh-hmm.
armantrout195	DB: And what type of revisions did it sort of start as? I mean, was it—would you just be crossing out and rewriting? Or would you—?
armantrout196	RA: I don't know if I would cross out. I think I would just, you know, go to another page and rewrite.
armantrout197	DB: OK. So, when did the computer start to enter in to this process?
armantrout198	RA: Let's see. When did I first get a computer?
armantrout199	The first thing I got was one of those IBM Selectrics that was sort of computerized, where you could make—you could save, and make a number of copies. But shortly after I got that, I was able to get my first computer. So, that became sort of redundant instantly.
armantrout200	I'm trying to think what year it was. I mean, it was probably only...when did...you tell me. When did desktops with word processing become available? It wasn't a Word. It was like Word Perfect, or Word—
armantrout201	DB: Word computers.
armantrout202	RA: Yeah.
armantrout203	DB: So, like mid-80's sort of?
armantrout204	RA: Yeah, maybe—
armantrout205	DB: —later than that?
armantrout206	RA: —later, maybe. Yeah. I think I got that Selectric in the mid-80's, maybe, you know—I probably got the computer by the late-80's, and I don't think I got internet until—there wasn't internet that you could get until the early 90's, probably.
armantrout207	DB: Yeah	[23:34]
armantrout208	RA: It's incredible now, to think!
armantrout209	DB: Yeah.
armantrout210	How did—so, how did that first computer come about? I mean, did you know a friend who had a computer and then go after that, or how'd you—?
armantrout211	RA: Yeah. I think, again, Ron Silliman (23:56) who worked in the computer industry—he worked as a marketer in the computer industry—he had one. I mean, he didn't live near me at that point, but we were in touch and he had one before I did.
armantrout212	But I guess, you know, really, I mean everyone was getting it at about the same time.
armantrout213	DB: Uh-hmm. So, you got a computer
armantrout214	RA: I don't remember. I mean, I guess it was gradual. I still, like I say, work in notebooks but I am sure that I started going from the notebook to the computer sooner than I would have on a typewriter, I am sure. But I don't have a clear memory of it.
armantrout215	What I do have a clear memory of is how the internet changed things. Because then you could send someone something and say, "What do you think? I don't know about this last line, what do you think?"
armantrout216	I mean, you could have that kind of conversation.
armantrout217	DB: Yeah.
armantrout218	RA: And if you do that in a letter—which I did, but by the time you got the letter back you'd already made up your mind—	[25:00]
armantrout219	DB: Right, right. So, in the early part when you were sending these by letters, you did that only a little bit and it didn't—how did you establish—?
armantrout220	RA: I think I did. I mean, I would type something up and send it, usually to a couple of people—two or three people—and I would get responses back. But it certainly—I mean, now we're so used to kind of this instant dialogue, instant gratification. Sometimes I think that that's, you know, maybe that's why I'm writing faster now. Really, it is the stimulation of that.
armantrout221	Because I'm still not—I guess, I'm insecure enough that I'm not comfortable in saying something is finished until somebody has said that they at least think it's interesting. I mean, it doesn't always have to be Ron. Sometimes I send it to somebody else, but I have to have, like, somebody's approval—not a 100% approval but, like, somebody has to think, "Oh, this is OK"—before I'll put it in a book. So that's sort of an integral part of the process. So obviously, if you could do that and get an answer in a day or two, well, you know.
armantrout222	DB: Yeah.
armantrout223	RA: Right.
armantrout224	DB: Right.
armantrout225	RA: So then I decide, at that point, whether I still need to revise.
armantrout226	DB: So, in the—like when the internet first starts coming and you start working, and kind of sending these things back and forth—was it just Ron Silliman (26:31) who was your kind of partner?
armantrout227	RA: No.
armantrout228	DB: Few more?
armantrout229	RA: I use to send them to more people. Lyn Hejinian, at first, and Bob Perelman, at first, and Lydia Davis, the fiction writer—she's a friend of mine. And later, Fanny Howe, too.
armantrout230	Now, I mostly just send them to Ron, and once in a while, to Lydia. Very rarely to Lyn Hejinian, but still once in a while, like maybe twice a year.
armantrout231	So, kind of that number of people has sort of shrunk.
armantrout232	DB: So you're looking for some sort of affirmation?	[27:05]
armantrout233	RA: Yeah
armantrout234	DB: Interesting, yeah. Do they give like specific line feedback? Or do they usually just give sort of—
armantrout235	RA: Ron does.
armantrout236	DB: OK.
armantrout237	RA: I mean, it all—I could show you. This, I guess, is the kind of—my screen is dirty—kind of thing you might want to see.
armantrout238	So, let me go to my "Mail," and I'll go to my—
armantrout239	DB: Sure.
armantrout240	RA: —"Sent Mail," and you can see some of these.
armantrout241	Oh, this actually has to do with the internet.
armantrout242	I sent Ron a poem that mentions messages I was getting—it's actually in a poem from mileage.com—that I thought were funny. Well, so, Ron writes back. He said, "Not sure you need the Q and A at the end"—I had a sort of "interviewing myself" bit at the end—"Not sure you need the Q and A at the end, but other than the problems with the url"—he thought that since I was saying Mileage.com, which he says is a phishing site —he thought that, if that was ever published in an online journal, and somebody hit on it, clicked it, that I could be in trouble for that, which I don't know if that's true. He says, "You know that mileage.com is a phishing site. It sends malware to your PC if you follow through." And then I, at some point, wrote back. I said, "I don't do that."
armantrout243	RA: So, you know, that's just some of the kinds of—so there I am, there I am sending something to him and having a correspondence with him.
armantrout244	Let's see.
armantrout245	Here I am sending something to myself, just to kind of preserve it. Same poem but it has a different title with that point—there is mileage.com lit up.
armantrout246	DB: Oh, yeah!
armantrout247	RA: Yeah, because it lights up if you—it doesn't on my computer, but it does if you do it on the iPad.
armantrout248	DB: It does it in Apple.
armantrout249	RA: Yeah.
armantrout250	DB: Right! So, did you write that on your iPad?
armantrout251	RA: Well, like always, I started here and I moved it to the iPad, and then I moved it to the computer—-but I was sending—I think I start writing—usually, I write in the morning, sitting over there. And I don't want to be running up and down the stairs, so then after I'll just go, "You know, this looks good enough to kind of type." So, I'll type it here. And if I don't yet feel like sharing it with someone, I'll just send it to myself because that's a way of saving it.
armantrout252	DB: And that's when you could move it to your—
armantrout253	RA: Yeah
armantrout254	DB: —other computer?
armantrout255	RA: Uh-hmm.
armantrout256	DB: And so when did you start using the iPad?
armantrout257	RA: Gee, again, I got an iPhone maybe three years ago, and I got the iPad maybe two years ago. I don't know. Time's a blur.	[30:00]
armantrout258	DB: Okay. So—
armantrout259	RA: It's an old one, though.
armantrout260	DB: So it's been a couple years, two or three years. Did you ever work on the iPhone, too?
armantrout261	RA: No, too tiny.
armantrout262	DB: Too small of a typing format.
armantrout263	So then, back to the revision correspondence. Do you think that—why do you think that Ron Silliman (30:29) has kind of been the constant of all that?
armantrout264	RA: Well, because he's very confident about what he says, first of all, and he's also very specific. He doesn't always say why he thinks what he thinks, which drives me crazy, but he gives me something to bounce off.	[30:33]
armantrout265	DB: Yeah, and is he very prompt in responding?
armantrout266	RA: Often. Not always. Sometimes it's right away, sometimes it's not for days, depends on how busy he is.
armantrout267	DB: Yeah, and does he reciprocate? Does he send you things over?
armantrout268	RA: He never has. He doesn't like to do that. Other people have.
armantrout269	So, you know, that's fine with me, but—he writes really, really long, kind of book-length things, and he doesn't revise much. He doesn't revise like I do. He just has a different kind of practice, and he seems to be very invested in his own certainty about things more than I am. But some other people will send me things. Lydia Davis sends me things and Fanny Howe (31:25) once in awhile sends me things.
armantrout270	DB: And how did you kind of develop your revision process, from the beginning, I guess?
armantrout271	RA: Well, I guess, I was just always looking for the best word, for instance, and it didn't always come to me right away. But also I will just get parts of things and I know that they're not finished, you know, and then I just try to see what can connect and I'll go one way, one direction and try to connect, you know, B to A. And then B doesn't quite connect to A, so then I'll go on to C and see if that connects to A.
armantrout272	DB: And has that been pretty constant throughout?
armantrout273	RA: Yeah.
armantrout274	DB: OK.
armantrout275	Have there been any big changes in the way you've approached kind of pushing the poem to its finished state throughout the time?
armantrout276	RA: Well, I bet there have, but you know, I was as much of a stranger to my twenty-four year-old self as you are, almost.
armantrout277	DB: Well, you did mention, though, that with the internet and with email becoming more—giving more easily available correspondence—you did start to speed up in the work. And do you think that's the only reason, or do you think it also has something to do with maybe moving onto more of a national scene?
armantrout278	RA: It could be that. It could be knowing that I have a supporting publisher. It could be just practice, you know, just that I have a better idea of what works now, you know—what works for me.
armantrout279	DB: Yeah.	[33:00]
armantrout280	And I know you don't—I think in one of your other interviews you said you don't really have, like, any intentions in revising your work, but are there primary things for different pieces that you're driven by? Like, are some driven more by sound, some driven more by meaning, some driven more by connecting the parts to the whole or disconnecting the parts to the whole?
armantrout281	RA: All of those things equally, you know. I mean, I am very interested in sound, and sounds—certain sounds can really bother me, or I could get stuck on one certain sound. So yeah, meaning is important to me, too. In terms of connecting parts because, as you know, if you've looked at my work, it often—
armantrout282	DB: —in sections?
armantrout283	RA: —in sections.
armantrout284	DB: Yeah, absolutely.
armantrout285	RA: And so, the sections might be written on different days; often are. And they often come from different sources or different inspirations, and—so then, the question is how they link in. And you kind of—at least if you're me, I shouldn't say "you", but "I"—want there to be some kind of possible perceptible connection, but I also want it to be surprising. I want it to kind of go somewhere that you didn't expect it to go, or that I didn't expect it to go. So, sometimes the first thing I come up with is too obvious and sometimes what I come up with is too random. It's like Goldilocks and the Three Bears.
armantrout286	DB: Has that sort of looking for that surprising turn, or idea, been a constant throughout? I mean, has that been something that's been driving you since you started writing?
armantrout287	RA: I've probably become more conscious of it, but I think so, yeah.
armantrout288	DB: And how do—so, could you talk a little bit about how, as you say, a lot of your poems are in sections and how those sections kind of come to be a whole? I mean, could there be several different days, and then in between those different sections become different poems?
armantrout289	RA: Sometimes that happens, yeah. I mean—	[35:00]
armantrout290	DB: Is it just a—do you just start to see connections? Does it—?
armantrout291	RA: Yeah, and sometimes I have an idea of what I want vaguely, but I don't know exactly where I'm going to get it or what the specifics are. But I—sometimes I have just a gut feeling about the direction that I want to go, and other times I don't, and then I just have to be surprised and just know that I want something and should keep my eyes open for it.
armantrout292	DB: And do you—I mean, there's a certain point where you say within the emails that you get some sort of affirmation. But then personally, when do you feel like a sense of, "Oh! That's surprising!" Is there like an "Aha!" moment?
armantrout293	RA: Yeah, sure.
armantrout294	Yeah, you have to please yourself first.
armantrout295	DB: Yeah.
armantrout296	RA: And I think one reason that I tend to send poems out is that I will be dissatisfied and fool with things forever unless somebody goes, "Hey, that's good."
armantrout297	DB: Yeah.
armantrout298	RA: I mean, I'll go, "Maybe it's not good. Maybe I should do something else." So, you know, I think that's why I need somebody to give me a kind of endpoint and say, "Cut it out now."
armantrout299	DB: Yeah.
armantrout300	RA: I mean, sometimes I know, but sometimes I can be insecure and just fiddle.
armantrout301	DB: Right. And then I guess is there any way—do you, once the poem kind of reaches the thesis binder stage, is there any time that you start to see the ways those are working and go back and revise there? Or once it's there it's usually kind of off limits?
armantrout302	RA: Well, I wouldn't say it's off limits, but I don't usually revise them, but I have. I mean it has happened that I've suddenly seen how something could be better and, you know, gone away from it, gone back to it and went, "Oh that could be better."
armantrout303	But I would say that's, you know, maybe one time in twenty.
armantrout304	DB: So they're more rare.
armantrout305	RA: Yeah.	[36:58]
armantrout306	DB: And when did you start using the thesis binders?
armantrout307	RA: Long time ago—maybe twenty, twenty-five years ago. They used to be easy to find, but now, like I said, they're antique—old school.
armantrout308	DB: Yeah, and before, when you were first putting your first collections together, how did that work? How was that looking?
armantrout309	RA: I might have had one even then. Because everyone used to. This is what used to happen. People—everyone used to bring these to a reading and just read from them. I don't even do that anymore because they're too heavy to carry. I just print them out. But that's what people used to do, so, everyone had one.
armantrout310	DB: OK.
armantrout311	So we've talked about how the other people—
armantrout312	Is there any other role that other people play in the process of your revisions? Are there any other people that are important to those, to the kind of finding the finish pieces?
armantrout313	RA: Well, I think not really except sometimes my editor gives me a little bit of guidance—not about individual poems but about the order of poems within the manuscript. I usually think I know, but sometimes she has a different idea that she runs by me and we consider that.
armantrout314	DB: OK.
armantrout315	And then, sort of moving on to the organizational— what I call organizational/archival—and we've kind of covered some of this, but when you were first—so in the early days before the computers, when you kind of hit that, what would you say a final piece is? You'd send it out, would you also keep a printed page?
armantrout316	RA: Oh, sure.
armantrout317	DB: OK.
armantrout318	And that would be in—
armantrout319	RA: In thesis binders.
armantrout320	DB: —and how would you communicate with your publisher with those?
armantrout321	RA: I suppose we had to communicate by snail mail, how else was there?
armantrout322	DB: Right, and so you would collect those all—would you make a copy of it before you send it off?	[38:38]
armantrout323	RA: Oh, yeah. I probably Xeroxed it. I mean, there were Xerox machines.
armantrout324	DB: Yeah, OK.
armantrout325	And once things were published, and things, did you start to kind of keep an archive—and archive of your work at that point? I mean, did you have boxes with your papers in it even at the beginning, or did that start to come more gradually?
armantrout326	RA: That came more gradually. I mean, I wish that I had kept my letters right from the beginning, because I had letters from George Oppen (39:10) and I had letter from Robert Creeley (39:12). It really took me awhile to realize that this was going to be worth anything.
armantrout327	DB: Yeah.
armantrout328	RA: It took seeing some of my friend—the way some of my friends took it seriously, like Lyn Hejinian (39:27), and organized things, and treated it as if it was all worthwhile.
armantrout329	DB: Yeah.
armantrout330	RA: But I didn't, you know, I didn't come from an intellectual family or background, and so it wasn't natural really for me, and I had to learn it.
armantrout331	DB: I'm interested in that, and like how did—so, the lessons were just from watching them do that, or were they from the conversations? I mean, did you just sort of notice that Lyn Hejinian (40:00) sort of had, like, kept things better?	[40:00]
armantrout332	RA: Well, I think at some point she sold her papers and I went, "Oh, people sell their papers and they get money." And also I would notice that she wrote letters as if she was writing for an archive. I mean, she would kind of give you the back story that you already knew, and I'm going, "What? Who is she talking to?" The archive!
armantrout333	DB: I never thought of that as being one of the correspondents, but that's a good point.
armantrout334	Yeah, and so, I guess—
armantrout335	RA: I still don't do that. But I think email has pretty much ended that for most people. Now, people just shoot off emails and so I don't know what's happening to archives.
armantrout336	DB: Yeah, I know, right? I mean, is there any way you try to save your emails? Are there any that you—?
armantrout337	RA: I have saved emails, and even printed them out and given them to libraries, but I just—I think Ron saves everything. So, everything I send to him gets saved. That's how I look at it. He's my archivist.
armantrout338	I mean, I only—you know, there's only so much space in my house.
armantrout339	DB: Oh, yeah.
armantrout340	RA: I know you can save things on your hard drive and give your hard drive to a library, but God knows what's on my hard drive. So, so far I've just—what I do now is, if there's anything that seems especially interesting or valuable, I'll print it out and keep it.
armantrout341	DB: And did you—like when you first started writing the emails back and forth, and kind of like general correspondence, what was the sort of tenor of those? Did it still feel more like a letter? I mean, did you notice a gradual change?
armantrout342	RA: Yeah. I mean, sure, letters were letters and—I should go look up my old letters. I could go to an archive and look at them.
armantrout343	Yeah, I think you would talk about various things—how your life was going and then you would say, "And by the way I wrote this" include it—but you would be catching up. Sure, now we catch up all the time, you know.
armantrout344	DB: Right, so, kind of constantly. Are you on any social media things?
armantrout345	RA: I'm on Facebook.
armantrout346	DB: You do Facebook.
armantrout347	RA: And I'm also on Twitter, but I don't tweet much.
armantrout348	DB: Just follow whatever's going on?
armantrout349	RA: A few things, yeah.
armantrout350	DB: A little bit?
armantrout351	RA: Yeah, but sure, I'm on Facebook and that's how I get some of my news.
armantrout352	DB: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout353	Do you remember your first email? Or any of that sort of thing? Sort of nostalgic, but—?
armantrout354	RA: I don't remember my first email. I remember that Ron said that I had "ramped up quickly." That was flattering, so I remember it.
armantrout355	DB: Were you first given an email because of your work—because of UCSD? Was that your first?	[42:31]
armantrout356	RA: No, I got it on my own and when my son was still living here, and he helped me set everything up. I mean, you know, he was probably fourteen or something. So that's why I have a really stupid—I mean, my university address—I guess you wrote me at my university address? Or did you write me—?
armantrout357	DB: Yeah, I think both. You gave me the other one because you were traveling.
armantrout358	RA: Which is really stupid because it's "RAEA100900." I shouldn't say that anything my son said was stupid, but he was only about fourteen and I guess he thought that was—I feel like I'm James Bond or something with that email address, but whatever.
armantrout359	DB: Let me see here—
armantrout360	So, I mean, it seems to me like, in sort of talking about the progression, that the main difference—the main change—has really just been the kind of speed with which email allows you to kind of get to a point where you think things are solid enough for a collection.
armantrout361	RA: Yeah
armantrout362	DB: Is there anything else you can think of that really changed as technology changed, or do you feel like for the most part—not that the type writer and computer are the same—but that the relationship between the notebook and those sort of typing procedures were similar?
armantrout363	RA: Well, I was never a great typist, so I was always making mistakes. So, it was always frustrating. Of course sometimes I hate my computer, too. I mean, it's not a question of the typing issue, but just—you know, we all hate our computers.
armantrout364	DB: Yeah.
armantrout365	RA: They're slow. Whatever. Sometimes I'm yelling at my computer, "What did you just do?" You know, it'll lose a document and I'll go, "What? I did what? It's gone!" You know?
armantrout366	DB: Yeah.
armantrout367	RA: So, I have kind of an adversarial relationship with it, but I use it all the time.
armantrout368	DB: And if you lost something, then you would go back—what would be your first move?
armantrout369	RA: Well, supposedly you can hit—I think it's CTRL-X—and get it back, but that doesn't work very well for me.
armantrout370	DB: Would you go back to an email? I mean like if you—?
armantrout371	RA: Well, if I sent an email, sure.
armantrout372	DB: What does the revision, if it's just you on your upstairs computer, what does that revision look like? I mean, are you moving things around a lot or are you—is it more just sort of reading and then deleting and inserting new words?
armantrout373	RA: Yeah, that would be it.
armantrout374	DB: Mostly. Do you read them out loud to yourself?
armantrout375	RA: Yeah, always.	[45:00]
armantrout376	DB: OK.
armantrout377	When do you start doing that?
armantrout378	RA: In the notebook.
armantrout379	DB: In the notebook. And so—well, can you talk a little bit more about how that works? I mean, is it something that as you're writing the first line, you're reading out loud, or is it like you finish something?
armantrout380	RA: I probably—well, in between—not the first line, but I'd probably have to have a few lines before I thought it was worth reading them out loud.
armantrout381	Let's see...
armantrout382	I should get to something bad that changed a lot, but then that would be embarrassing.
armantrout383	DB: We're only being recorded by like four devices, so—
armantrout384	RA: Yeah, right.
armantrout385	I don't know what to do here because the things that I start out writing change so much.
armantrout386	Let's see.
armantrout387	I can get to a poem that's finished, and I can read a little bit from my journal that were the beginning of it, I guess.	[46:00]
armantrout388	DB: OK, yeah, that'd be great.
armantrout389	RA: OK, although the beginning is going to be very bad—
armantrout390	DB: Give the rest of us hope!
armantrout391	RA: —you can stand that. OK.
armantrout392	So, this is in two parts, and I think this part is working on—first of all, it's very hard to read my hand writing, even for me to read it when I'm looking back at something I wrote a while ago now.
armantrout393	That's bad.
armantrout394	OK, there is—is it okay if I read the poem, or is that a waste of time?
armantrout395	DB: No! Absolutely.
armantrout396	RA: OK, so, this is called "Particular:"
armantrout397	Rough, squat, bent, crabbed, cranky. A cranky person who is over enthusiastic about a particular topic. To be particular is to be choosy. A particle is a body whose extent and internal structure, if any, are irrelevant. You there, let's dispense with these properties of matter such anachronistic clothes as ghosts wear. Let's be mirrors, facing mirrors. Fall in love.
armantrout398	OK, so, here's some build up to that, which really doesn't sound like a poem at all. OK, this is embarrassing but:
armantrout399	To love, you show yourself willing to erase yourself. Make yourself blank together for a few moments—see, this is just prose—"in order to reflect the other." That ended up being, "Let's be mirrors facing mirrors. Fall in love."
armantrout400	Two cloudless skies, no earth between. The young do it best, now everyone has lost the trick of it. For love, they emptied—
armantrout401	—and then I guess I'm rewriting:
armantrout402	For love, they emptied themselves. Mirrors reflecting mirrors.
armantrout403	So, that gets a bit of that.
armantrout404	The young, two cloudless skies, nothing between. Not like us, condensed into these peculiar shapes. For love they emptied themselves—
armantrout405	—and this is starting over again:
armantrout406	—"until they're mirrors reflecting mirrors. The young unlike us, who have assumed these peculiar shapes, they forget everything until they're mirrors reflecting mirrors, the young open channels"—
armantrout407	—I took that out eventually
armantrout408	—"through which charges flow, not us. They forget everything until they're mirrors reflecting mirrors, they fall in love. The trick young can do, unlike us with our definite opinions and habits, these properties and mass change, spin"—
armantrout409	—so that gets to where I was talking about a particle is a body. So that's like subatomic, right?
armantrout410	—"its extended internal structure, if any are irrelevant, let's dispense with these properties of matter."
armantrout411	So anyway, here I'm starting to get in to that. "These properties and mass charge spin are like the clothes that ghosts wear." Well, that gets in to here, except there's no simile. It just goes:
armantrout412	Let's dispense with these properties of matter. Such anachronistic clothes as ghosts wear. Let's be mirrors facing mirrors.
armantrout413	You can see how some of that worked into that.	[49:28]
armantrout414	DB: Yeah, absolutely! And then—so, it kind of moves, not quite chronologically, but sequentially, and it's not even a winnowing; it's an addition and subtraction, and addition—
armantrout415	RA: Now this is stuff not even Ron Silliman sees because I wouldn't send anything that inchoate to anyone.
armantrout416	DB: OK.
armantrout417	RA: So, now, you're seeing something, you're hearing something, that nobody has—
armantrout418	DB: Yeah. No, it's fascinating. And then so, at a certain point when you move to that, does that sort of stop in the journal, in the notebook?
armantrout419	RA: Yeah.	[50:00]
armantrout420	DB: I mean, in the next poem?
armantrout421	RA: Once I move to this, then I seldom go back to the notebook.
armantrout422	DB: OK. But then the next page, then, would be the next poem that you work on, essentially?
armantrout423	RA: Yeah, unless I decide that, say, the last part of this is bad and then I might start over in the notebook.
armantrout424	DB: And so the type of revision, then, that happens on the iPad—? I mean, it's not as easy to kind of move things around there. What usually occurs?
armantrout425	RA: Fortunately for me my poems don't have a lot of words and they have short lines, so I just back things out and start over. I just do that.
armantrout426	DB: OK.
armantrout427	Is there any sort of formatting that you use, either here or on your PC, that you kind of developed? Like do you have a certain font that you use or anything like that, or is that not really a concern of yours?
armantrout428	RA: That's not really a concern.
armantrout429	DB: OK.
armantrout430	RA: I mean, I wouldn't want to hate a font but I'm okay with the standard font.
armantrout431	DB: Yeah. And then I guess I'm wondering, then, before there were—before you had the iPad—you would just take the notebook up to your computer and write it down there?
armantrout432	RA: Yeah.
armantrout433	DB: That would be the thing?
armantrout434	RA: Sure, of course.
armantrout435	DB: So, it's almost like an ease of place, almost.
armantrout436	RA: Yeah.
armantrout437	DB: More than anything else.
armantrout438	RA: Absolutely, because I'm just comfortable in this room and I would just stay there with my coffee playing around here for quite a while. So, I think that's just, you know, habit.	[51:24]
armantrout439	DB: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout440	Do you use the—when you're connected up there, is the internet always connected as well? Are you always connected to the internet?
armantrout441	RA: Yeah.
armantrout442	DB: Are you doing any, are you using it for research purposes or reference purposes when you're up there?
armantrout443	RA: Yeah, I mean in terms of my teaching—
armantrout444	DB: OK.
armantrout445	RA: —because I'm preparing to teach this class I've never taught before, and I'm going to be teaching it with a guy, with a physicist, where it's called Poetry for Physicists—
armantrout446	DB: That's great!
armantrout447	RA: —and he's been getting a lot press lately. I don't know if you've seen it. Bryan Keating (52:01), he was involved with the discovery at the South Pole?
armantrout448	DB: Yeah, yeah, absolutely!
armantrout449	RA: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout450	DB: Oh, wow!
armantrout451	RA: And he's interested in poetry!
armantrout452	So anyway, I'm doing research for that, and I was just—I'm using some ancient poets like Lucretius, who wrote about science, you know. I mean, he wrote—the ancient Greeks like Lucretius knew about—or, not knew but hypothesized the existence of atoms and the void. So, I was just doing some research about him on the computer and then printing them out.
armantrout453	Yeah, so, sure.
armantrout454	DB: Yeah, I know. When I was reading your work and read about those kinds of things—discovery or confirmation of the Inflation Theory, I was like, "I would really like to see a poem by Rae Armantrout about this."
armantrout455	RA: Well, turns out he's my bud!
armantrout456	DB: Yeah, that's awesome! Yeah, that's a good—and how long have you been in conversation with him?
armantrout457	RA: I dedicated a poem to him in this book. So, I've been in conversation with him for, I don't know, maybe three years? So the poem called "Accounts" is based on a conversation that we had.
armantrout458	DB: And what are his books?
armantrout459	RA: Here it is. See? "For Bryan Keating." (53:18)
armantrout460	DB: Oh, cool! OK.
armantrout461	RA: I don't think scientists—I mean, he's an astrophysicist. They don't write books.
armantrout462	DB: You mentioned somebody that—there was some, like, more popular science writer that you were reading—?
armantrout463	RA: You know I read Brian Greene, different Brian—
armantrout464	DB: Yeah, I was getting confused because of the Brian's.
armantrout465	And how long has that been a sort of subject of fascination for you?
armantrout466	RA: I think—the first time I did anything with particle physics was really when it first became popularized, like when The Tao of Physics came out in the 80's. And at first I thought it was just kind of absurd, all the particles, and I thought it was just like, "How many angels can stamd on the head of a pin?" or whatever. But I was still reading it and sort of interested in it, and then I guess starting with my book Up To Speed in 2004, I've taken a more sustained interest in it.
armantrout467	DB: What's this class going to look like overall? Do you have like a shape to it?
armantrout468	RA: Yeah. I mean, I've never team-taught before, but some days I'll be talking—I've chosen poems that either have something to do with cosmology or physics in some way, or that have to do with objectivity and subjectivity and theories of mind. Or then, in a different way, going off of kind of Chaos Theory where complexity can be—can grow from the iteration of simple rules. I'm using some poets like,
armantrout469	well, like Ron Silliman, and like Jackson Macklow (55:01), and like Christian Bök, that (Indiscernible, 55:05) poet who use constraints, or rules, to generate poems and have math in their poems, you know, not as a subject but as a generative principle.	[55:00]
armantrout470	DB: Right.
armantrout471	RA: So I'm doing some of that.
armantrout472	And Brian is, you know, he likes poetry but he's not exactly up to the avant-garde, shall we say? He likes sonnets and such, so we have a bit of that.
armantrout473	DB: OK, and will it be a class in which you ask the students to write, or is it more—?
armantrout474	RA: It's not really a writing class.
armantrout475	DB: —survey?
armantrout476	RA: I mean, they're going to write one poem and they're going to write a couple of essays and there's going to be a couple of tests, and it's mostly a reading and discussion course.
armantrout477	DB: OK, and its next fall?
armantrout478	RA: No, it's in the spring. It starts in a week.
armantrout479	DB: Oh, right!
armantrout480	RA: It starts next Tuesday.
armantrout481	DB: You guys are quarters.
armantrout482	RA: Yeah.
armantrout483	DB: OK.
armantrout484	So, let me see here.
armantrout485	We're fairly well along, almost done actually.
armantrout486	Are there any other—I mean, these are kind of—I don't know how far you want to get in to this, but in terms of teaching, when did that sort of email and computer start to kind of take over that? I mean, sort of like the 2000's, early 2000's?
armantrout487	RA: Email? I think that was in the 90's, wasn't it?
armantrout488	DB: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout489	And has that—do you feel like that's changed how you approach students and how you approach your classes?
armantrout490	RA: Well, yeah. Now your students can always find you. It certainly made it easier to write a syllabus having a computer—
armantrout491	DB: Yeah
armantrout492	RA: —and, you know, you can constantly email your students and remind them of what they're supposed to be doing. I think its just made things easier for everyone.
armantrout493	DB: Do you see any sort of differences in understanding of your students now as to your students like, say, fifteen or twenty years ago?
armantrout494	RA: Well, I think that, you know, certainly students do gradually change. I think that when you teach young people, you kind of, sort of stay in that world. You hear their expressions—I'm not saying I'm a digital native by a long shot—but you know, you sort of hear the way they talk and you get a bit of their mind set, and you know, you know their lingo. In a way that, I think, when I retire, I might miss that.
armantrout495	DB: Yeah, yeah.
armantrout496	RA: But still, if something goes wrong with my computer I have to get my son to help me.
armantrout497	DB: So, that's actually—I've found that this has been kind of a theme. Do you have somebody who comes in and helps you if you have any computer problems?
armantrout498	RA: Yeah, he lives in Seattle, but he's walked me through things on the phone.
armantrout499	DB: OK.
armantrout500	And has he set up—did he set up your computer when you first got it and stuff like that?
armantrout501	RA: Yeah.
armantrout502	DB: OK.
armantrout503	RA: And he was 14. He's built a computer, even.
armantrout504	DB: Oh, is he working—if he's in Seattle, is he working in the computer industry?
armantrout505	RA: No, he's a scientist but he's not in the computer industry. He's a biologist.
armantrout506	DB: Oh, OK.
armantrout507	So, I'm fairly well through. We've covered pretty much what I liked to cover. I do have my blunt questions at the end. So, is there any sort of overarching thing that you think has changed with the advent of computers in terms of writing? I mean, do you see a sort of maybe change in tone, a change in tenor, a change in ideas that have been—?
armantrout508	RA: Well, yeah. I mean, the fact that I've just recently wrote a poem that references Mileage.com—
armantrout509	DB: Right.
armantrout510	RA: —and if I could bring up that section of it for you, anyway, because it's certainly something that would not have been written had there not been computers. It goes: "Protect your identities says mileage.com, three times today as if it knew something. I may want to fly cheap, cruise in luxury, buy a walk-in tub, and burial insurance."
armantrout511	Yeah, they try to sell you things.
armantrout512	So yeah, I mean, I think that that gets into the content of the work, and then there are groups of poets who work in that realm kind of specifically and almost exclusively—like the Flarf poets, for instance, just do what they call "Google mining."
armantrout513	DB: Yeah, and what's—what do you—
armantrout514	RA: And also of course, there are digital poets. There's digital poetry where people write poems especially for the computer, where the—I don't know, the words fall off the screen at different rates, and such.
armantrout515	DB: Yeah, do you do—if you were willing to be reading poems for whatever reason, do you find that you're reading them a lot more on your screen than you used to?
armantrout516	RA: I don't like to read on the screen. I mean, I do read things on the screen, but if I'm judging a contest or something, which I sometimes do, I ask for hard copies. Or if I get them on the screen, I print them because I just don't like to read on the screen. I mean, I don't want to sit up there on a hard chair. I don't want to look at that light—	[1:00:00]
armantrout517	DB: Right.
armantrout518	RA: You know?
armantrout519	DB: No, I think that's pretty typical.
armantrout520	OK, I think that's good, Rae.
armantrout521	Thank you very much.
armantrout522	RA: Alright, this was painless.
armantrout523	DB: Yeah! Alright.
armantrout524	Just at an hour.
armantrout525	RA: Good.
armantrout526	DB: Good.
beasley1	Devin Becker: All right. I've basically got a few little sections to this. The first section is kind of like where you are at now with more digital work and the sort of technical processes that you use. The second session will kind of go through your compositional practices and how they've changed over the course of your career. So, the first one is almost like short answer, which I'm sure we'll go through it fairly quickly. If you would, for the camera, please state your name, your date of birth and the location where we are right now?	[00:00:00]
beasley2	Bruce Beasley: Bruce Beasley. Date of birth January 20, 1958, and we are in my writing cottage in my studio in the back of my house in Bellingham, Washington.
beasley3	DB: What genres do you work in?
beasley4	BB: Poetry only.
beasley5	DB: What kinds of devices do you own or have access to for writing?
beasley6	BB: Devices?
beasley7	DB: Yeah.
beasley8	BB: You mean like computers?
beasley9	DB: Sure.
beasley10	BB: I have a laptop, a Toshiba Satellite laptop computer, and that's mainly it.
beasley11	DB: Is that it? Do you work on a tablet or a phone or anything like that?
beasley12	BB: No.
beasley13	DB: Or pretty primarily on that device?
beasley14	BB: That and my office computer, which is a desktop.
beasley15	DB: The operating system on which you work, is that a Windows?
beasley16	BB: Windows 7—or that's Windows 8, now.
beasley17	DB: Do you work on that office computer very often or is that—?
beasley18	BB: I do. In the summer, like now, I work almost exclusively here on that computer. When I'm at work, when I'm teaching, I am often working a couple of hours a day during the day, and I work mostly on the office computer when I'm doing that. So, I'm always sending files back and forth.
beasley19	DB: How do you do that? Do you email them to yourself?
beasley20	BB: I have Carbonite on this computer.
beasley21	DB: Okay.
beasley22	BB: So, you can call up these files there easily, but not vice versa. Things that I put in my office computer, I have to email to myself if I want to work on them here.
beasley23	DB: Okay, so you don't have the folder on your office computer, you just have the kind of shared folder here?
beasley24	BB: Yeah.
beasley25	DB: Do you use computers exclusively or do you also work —physically?
beasley26	BB: I use computers mostly. What I do a lot is—I've brought some examples of this, if you want to see them—I write a lot when I'm walking. I take long walks and scribble in a notebook like this one. Just usually individual lines—let's see if I can find some examples. And then often I will transcribe them onto note cards. Just—this says: "Your omissive offspring deviled what you've got in there," which is lines that I was working toward a poem called "Offspring Insprung," which is a response to a sculptor named Bruce Beasley—he has the same name as me.
beasley27	We've been doing this kind of collaboration. I have been writing sort of my self-portrait through the lens of his sculptures. So he sent me a sculpture called "Offspring," which is in the house if you want to see it—one of his sculptures. And I wrote a poem called "Offspring Insprung" responding to his sculpture. So when I was writing that, I was taking long walks and just scribbling down random lines.	[00:3:50]
beasley28	I can write individual lines by hand. When it comes to a whole poem, I do it almost exclusively on the computer. This one says, "Even the evenings are odd, even the odds are even/ offspring, autumnal, equinox, off quilter," which are not lines I ended up using but often, when I'm doing this kind of walking, I'll end up with a stack this big of note cards, and then when I'm at the computer, I shift them around and type them up, and rearrange them and shuffle them and move them into different places.
beasley29	DB: So, you'll have them, like, kind of spread out in a grid on your desk essentially?
beasley30	BB: Yes.
beasley31	DB: And then move them around. How does that help you—are you sort of picturing them on a page, then?
beasley32	DB: Or are you still kind of picturing them in the air? How is that?	[00:05:00]
beasley33	BB: In the air—very much in the air. And I'll do a thing where I'll start by dealing out a card, so like I'll just randomly deal a card—"coverts of the cube"—and start writing from that on the computer. I'm a big fan of craps and gambling, and I like to think of words as, like, "rolls of the dice," in a way. So often when I'm beginning a poem, I'll start with the straight lines and images, or phrases, quotations—like this—and then when I'm sitting down with a computer, I'll deal them out with something like—"You're in geometry."
beasley34	My teenage son was in geometry, taking geometry, but I was thinking about Bruce Beasley the sculptor, and how geometrical his abstract sculptures are. So, I write like, "You're in geometry," which is also not something I ended up using—though I kind of like it now. So yeah, I do a lot of handwriting work like that, especially when I'm walking.
beasley35	DB: Okay. And where do you walk?
beasley36	BB: The bay is about half a mile from here, Bellingham Bay. The beach is about one mile exactly. There is a beach called Little Squalicum Beach. I usually walk from here down to there and sit on the rocks by the water, by the beach.
beasley37	DB: Will you write while you are walking?
beasley38	BB: Yeah. I carry either note cards or a notebook with me and scribble things down as I'm walking.
beasley39	DB: Do you have specific notebooks that you use? I mean, that seems like a very unique notebook.
beasley40	BB: It's got a Byzantine cross on it. It's kind of appropriate for me.
beasley41	DB: Yeah! No, it's great. Do you have many of those?
beasley42	BB: I do. And I'll write—often when I'm writing, I'll just write tittles off and I'll start with just tittles. So, just yesterday, I wrote "False Negatives," "Team Lullaby with Abraham and Dedalus," "Isaac and Icarus," "Be All and End All," "Study for Happiness." Often I'll start with a title like that and start mulling it—and scribbling down lines for it in a journal like this one, and then when I get enough lines, either put them on note cards or just sit down with a computer and a notebook and start transcribing and moving around things that I've written in the notebook.
beasley43	I can't remember the last time, and I may never have done it—written an entire poem by hand without a typewriter or a computer. I just don't work that way.	[00:7:52]
beasley44	DB: Yeah, but you do write by hand a lot of the pieces of the poem.
beasley45	BB: I generate—yeah, I generate fragments of the poem, but the act of consolidating and moving them, and making a poem out of them—for me it's always been done on a computer, or a typewriter before that.
beasley46	DB: So, what do you do to kind of save—like when you are finished with the project or finished with these cards, do you save them somewhere?
beasley47	BB: Yeah. I was trying to find the rest of these. I have them, but I can't put my finger on them—but they're somewhere.
beasley48	DB: Somewhere like in a box or in a file, cabinet?
beasley49	BB: Yeah.
beasley50	DB: And how many notebooks do you have at this point?
beasley51	BB: I have a lot. I have a box of them this big, in no particular order. The other thing I do—you might be interested in—is once a year I print out all the notes, all the computer writing I've done. I keep them in a bound journal that is by year. So this one, for example, is 1999—and you'll see that a lot of times, when I work on the computer, I'll write a kind of journal, just sort of what's going on and what I'm thinking about, and working with stray pieces of poems that I've written down by hand.
beasley52	And then—I don't know, somehow it's important to me to have it all printed out. Because when I'm writing and in between poems, I'll often skim through the printouts of previous years, looking for pieces of poems I've started but never finished, or just stray lines that didn't go anywhere but now they do.	[00:9:25]
beasley53	DB: So does this serve almost like—so would you search for things on your computer, too? Or you would rather come search your own archive, your own index?
beasley54	BB: I don't like reading on the computer, I never have.
beasley55	DB: Okay.
beasley56	BB: I like to write on a computer but not read on it. And what this also does is it gives me all the drafts of every poem I have ever written.	[00:10:00]
beasley57	DB: And you do this once a year? You print out everything once a year?
beasley58	BB: Yes.
beasley59	DB: Are there dates on the poems themselves?
beasley60	BB: Yeah.
beasley61	DB: So you date—and do you put a time? Or do you just—?
beasley62	BB: I do. Like this one says, "December 10, 1999, Dickinson's birthday and Don is a friend of mine, come to think of it, Friday morning 9:15," and then I'll start talking about what's going on and then start working on lines from a poem, thinking about etymologies—Latin penetralis, inner. penetrari—"to penetrate"—from which comes penetralia. "Penetrate is to enter or force the way into, to grasp the inner meaning of"—you know, that sort of associative thinking. But I do it in writing on the computer, often, and when I'm not doing that I'm walking and doing it in my mind and jotting down notes in a notebook.
beasley63	DB: Do you have like a schedule to which you try to keep, or is this just kind of a continual work?
beasley64	BB: Continual. When I'm—in the summer, or on sabbatical (because I was on sabbatical most of year before last), then I'll write every day, all day, as much as I can. I mean, I'm here at my desk, right there or right here, or walking. Often I'll walk for two hours and come back and write for two hours, or something like that.
beasley65	DB: So, mostly it's here.
beasley66	BB: I'm a really obsessive writer, so when I'm writing I do it kind of nonstop. But I go long periods where I don't write—that's my kind of schedule.
beasley67	DB: And usually those correspond to your teaching?	[00:12:08]
beasley68	BB: Yeah.
beasley69	DB: And you teach—is Western on a quarter system?
beasley70	BB: Mm-hmm.
beasley71	DB: So, you teach from September to mid June every year?
beasley72	BB: Late September to early June, yeah.
beasley73	DB: Alright. So let me kind of backup for a second. We've talked some about your practices now; I'd like to kind of think about different eras in your own career, and your writing practices then, too—and we can kind of relate them a little bit, hopefully. But before that, could you say how long you have been writing? This isn't scare quotes, but—professionally?
beasley74	BB: My first book was published in 1988, so '98, 2008—twenty-five, twenty-six years.
beasley75	DB: Could you give kind of a—describe, kind of give a broad arc of your career, just to kind of ground the interview a little?
beasley76	BB: In terms of what I have written and published?
beasley77	DB: Yeah. Where you've been, what the projects have been, etc.
beasley78	BB: Okay. So, I grew up in Macon, Georgia. I started writing poems when I was about twelve, and—really awful, awful poems when I was twelve. But I kept writing all through high school, and went Oberlin College where I took a lot of creative writing classes, majored in English. Then I went to Columbia University MFA program after that, immediately after that. I graduated from there in '82 and I did a series of editorial jobs during the first half of the '80s, writing for alumni magazines and things like that, and other magazines. I worked for a magazine called Good Life, which was a magazine designed to be marketed to the richest people in the country, things like that—1% top, 1% maybe—and ironically it went bankrupt shortly after I started working there.
beasley79	And then in '86, Wesleyan University Press accepted my first book, Spirituals, and that gave me the kind of jolt I needed, I think, because I just felt this increasingly grotesque disjunction between what I was doing for a living and what I cared about. So I went back and got a PhD at the University of Virginia in American Literature. I did a dissertation in Emily Dickinson, and then while I was in the PhD program I wrote most of my second book, The Creation, which won the Ohio State University Prize and was published in '94.
beasley80	DB: Who chose that? Was that Charles Wright? Or was that the next one was Charles Wright?
beasley81	BB: No, that was—I think David Citino who was the judge of that. And I came here to Western in '92, moved out to Bellingham in the fall of '92. In '96, Charles Wright picked my third book, Summer Mystagogia for the Colorado Prize, and then Wesleyan published Signs and Abominations in 2000. Five years later, Lord Brain—a book about cosmology and the mind and the brain and looking at metaphysics through the physicality of the brain and the structures of the cosmos—won the University of Georgia Press competition, was published by them. And then The Corpse Flower, my New And Selected Poems, was published by the University of Washington Press in 2007, I guess. The most recent was Theophobia, which BOA published in 2012.	[00:15:00]
beasley82	DB: And from 1992 to now, you've been professor at Western Washington, teaching?	[00:16:16]
beasley83	BB: Yeah.
beasley84	DB: So, I have this kind of broken apart into, like: "composition," "writing," "prewriting," "generatives," "structure," "revising/revision," and then "organizational/archival"—which is more like putting books together, etc.—and I'd like to talk about it in different stages. So if those don't work for your writing process, let me know. We can talk about it differently. But we probably won't even—we'll probably just talk.
beasley85	So when you first—like, right out of college up until your first book—what was your writing process like then? How were you writing then?
beasley86	BB: I was working on, as I said, a series of editorial jobs, and I did a lot of writing at work, which was nice because I had jobs working for PR offices at colleges and universities, but they were jobs where there was a huge amount of spare time where there was really nothing to do. I wasn't expected to do anything; there was nothing to be done.
beasley87	You know that old ad—the Maytag Repair ad? There was an old, famous ad campaign for Maytag washing machines, and the joke of it was that the washing machine never broke down; so they had Maytag Repairs, and the Maytag Repairs people were just really bored, they had nothing to do. So, I had a sign on my desk that said Maytag Repairs. But I had a lot of spare time, so I would write a lot at work on my typewriter—this was before computers. So, I wrote a lot of my first book in those jobs.
beasley88	DB: So, we can talk about the pre-writing, generative—were you taking notes like you do now? How did you get to the poems, I guess, at that point?
beasley89	BB: I was typing.
beasley90	DB: You were just typing?
beasley91	BB: Yeah, typing. I probably had one of these notebooks here, if you want to look at it. Here is one, and I was printing it out—oh, this was a little bit later, this is '92—but it was printed out on these long rolls of printer paper, you know? Those old-style printer rolls?
beasley92	DB: With like serrated edges? Yeah.
beasley93	BB: Yeah. So just doing essentially what I do now—large chunks of prose that would lead to ideas and sort of mull through ideas—but I was typing it on a Selectric typewriter.
beasley94	DB: Okay. And then printing it out that way. So when you started, you were writing on a typewriter and had a similar mode of kind of generative—did you do walks or anything like that in the early—?
beasley95	BB: No, I had to be at my desk, so I couldn't.
beasley96	DB: You had to be at your desk. Would you write lines and then rearrange them at that point? Or were you kind of composing more closely full poems?
beasley97	BB: Exactly the same way I do it now.	[00:19:23]
beasley98	DB: Okay. This could change.
beasley99	BB: Doesn't change at all, no. I'd write stray lines and then start pulling them together and rearranging. The difference was, it was much more cumbersome to retype it all than it is now—but essentially the same process.
beasley100	DB: As you progressed in your career, when did you move to a computer?
beasley101	BB: I think my first computer was probably—did I have a computer in graduate school? I think probably at the end of—no, because I wrote my dissertation on a typewriter. No, I didn't,
beasley102	BB: I had a computer when I was writing my dissertation in Virginia in the early '90s.	[00:20:00]
beasley103	DB: Early '90s?
beasley104	BB: 1990-1991.
beasley105	DB: When you were getting your PhD what was your writing style like? Were you writing at home mostly?
beasley106	BB: Yeah. And I was writing—I was doing long walks then, too.
beasley107	DB: Okay. Through Charlottesville somewhere? And then was that when you started writing down on the note cards?
beasley108	BB: No. That's a pretty recent thing.
beasley109	DB: That's a more recent thing?
beasley110	BB: Yeah.
beasley111	DB: So that sort of early—that sort of note taking, walking, was established pretty early. Did anything change, like as you moved to Bellingham? Or was the process fairly similar for prewriting, etc.?
beasley112	BB: It's been pretty constant.
beasley113	DB: Pretty constant?
beasley114	BB: Yeah.
beasley115	DB: Has it changed by location at all? I guess one big event probably in your writing life is this thing [the small, separate space in which the interview is taking place]. What was it like? When this came into your life—when was this built, this cottage?
beasley116	BB: I think about seven years ago.
beasley117	DB: Did your writing practice change very much for it, or was it just made much more useful?
beasley118	BB: It's easier. This is my flipper. This thing is crucial to my writing. This is the window crank for an old-fashioned window that I had growing up in Macon, Georgia. As a child I started a process of flipping this thing, or doing like this. I call it my "flipper." It's crucial to my writing and I have had it ever since I was a little kid, but as a kid I would throw it when I was thinking—and even as a teenager, I would write mostly by flipping this thing.
beasley119	There is something about the action, repetitive action of throwing and catching, that's always been really important to generating ideas. It's similar to the kind of rhythm I have when I'm walking, I think—that kind of rhythmic catch and release. So often when I'm writing, all through my life, I have kept this thing with me and I flip it while I'm thinking. Often, I can't think unless I'm doing that. It's a kind of kinetic thing, I think, and when I'm walking, often I have a stick, a stick that I'm flipping or throwing around, too.
beasley120	DB: Something with the hands almost always, too?
beasley121	BB: Yeah. So, I lost this thing for a couple of years. Somehow it got lost, and it drove me crazy. Then I found it I was like, "My flipper! It's back!"
beasley122	DB: That's funny. Within the writing process, do you have certain times when you pick it up? Are you more likely to use it when you are generating work or when you are revising, or does it—?	[00:22:49]
beasley123	BB: Every—all times.
beasley124	DB: All times?
beasley125	BB: Especially when I'm revising. When I'm revising, I say the poems aloud over and over, always—and often when I'm walking. I can always tell a poem is almost finished because I've come to the point where I've memorized it without trying to—just from saying it aloud so many times. Often when I'm walking, I get to a point where I've got to draft in my mind and mumbling it to myself aloud, while I'm walking, to hear the rhythm of it and the sound of it and the words of it.
beasley126	When I'm revising or when I'm generating new ideas, I often use this thing. I remember my roommate in college told me, when Suzanne and I were first dating, I would leave her house and come back to my own room in the house where I was renting a room, and I would lie in bed and flip this thing, and he came in and said, "You know, you tell Suzanne you're writing, but really you're just flipping your flipper." I said, "But flipping my flipper's how I write! That's what I'm doing, I'm writing!"
beasley127	DB: That's fascinating. I guess I'm sort of trying to get—so you will use your flipper in somewhat pensive moments when you are kind of considering what you've written or what you are about to write, but also maybe—I mean, do you do it at your desk ever?
beasley128	BB: It's kind of hard to do it in a desk, so maybe when I'm sitting or lying down in bed. So, in here, I'll pull the Murphy bed down, sometimes I might look out the skylight, do this and think, and jot down lines.
beasley129	DB: Yeah. So you were saying earlier, like once you have these lines jotted down, you have the notebooks kind of composed and you also have big chunks of prose in the computer that you've written, too—
beasley130	DB: —so, how does this jumble become a poem, exactly? Where do you get to the point where you start to rehearse it in your head and start to revise it?	[00:25:00]
beasley131	BB: Oh, okay. So, the prose that I write is—I'll find something more recent—is designed to get me, it's just sort of a thinking aloud, and I encourage my students to try this, too. It works really well, for me anyway. So I'll start with just a kind of diary—not like a diary, but just sort of "this is what's happening right now," and then go from that to general ideas and images, fragments. Sometimes I'll make list of words that will take up a page or two. Sometimes I'll—this is my unabridged dictionary that I use—
beasley132	DB: That you roll the dice—	[00:25:20]
beasley133	BB: Obsessively. Yeah. Sometimes I'll roll dice to pick a page in the dictionary and open to that page, and just read that page until something in the words or the etymologies or the definitions trigger something.
beasley134	DB: What's the edition? What dictionary is that?
beasley135	BB: This is Webster's Unabridged New Universal. So I'll turn to a particular page—"clean lead," "clean sweep," "clean shaven," and "cleanser," "clean room," "cleaning woman,"" clean energy," "clean cut," "clean bill of health"—I'll read around it until something starts triggering something that's going on emotionally or intellectually right at that moment in my life.
beasley136	Thinking about cleanliness and I might just start typing and thinking about associating with cleanness and dirt and pollution, and what it means for something to be "clean cut." So, I'll start writing some lines, and then often what I will do is—once I've got some lines or some ideas going, I'll go for a walk, and I will just fill up a whole page with words that sound good with the word "clean."
beasley137	DB: Okay. How do you determine what sounds good with the word "clean"?	[00:27:11]
beasley138	BB: Just associatively. "Clean machine," for example, sounds good to me. I would write on a note card or notebook "clean machine," even though that doesn't mean anything to me. What's a "clean machine'? And walking, I'll start thinking about a "clean machine," just as an example.
beasley139	So, yes: how do you get from that prose to lines? I'll just read you an example:
beasley140	Reading Celan: ‘it is time it were time'—which is a line, one of my favorite lines of Celan—"Amen to that. I want to write a ‘Damaged Self-Portrait'"—that's a poem that ended up being in Signs and Abominations—the principle of being to write about myself is I am now through suggested images rather than through narrative or logical progression."
beasley141	So oftentimes I'll start with that kind of abstract, "this is what I want to do, how I'm going to do it," series of images for myself, for selfhood in general; disconnected images. And then I'll start writing lines:
beasley142	Rent twin—and there, it's just that "rent" and "twin" sound good together—"Rent twin, gash in the oak trunk, mud sucked on boots/ What comes back comes halve, to crucifix, the awkward joining together of two broken sticks"—just sort of free-associating images and lines and ideas and words that draw each other—for me. And after awhile I will take some of those lines and start walking and thinking about it: what's "mud sucked on boots?" What am I talking about? I'll start building on that.
beasley143	DB: How do you determine what comes first, what comes later? I guess—how do you build the progression of the poem?
beasley144	BB: At first I don't worry about that at all. I just let lines accumulate, images accumulate, phrases—until I have a whole series of pages of drafts. Then I'll start worrying about it. I try not to make myself—I know poets who write from the first line on: begin with the first line and then write the second one. Linda Bierds once told me she writes that way, which astonished me because it's so utterly unlike anything I do. But I really try, especially when I write long poems—which a lot of my poems are—not to impose any order on it	[00:29:25]
beasley145	BB: until I've got pages and pages of lines. Then I'll print them out. I think I can find an example of—okay; so here I have, like, just pages of lines separated by just asterisks or marks with no attempt at coherence. And at that point, I'll start moving them around: what if I start here? What if I put this here? Sometimes I'll have them all written down on note cards and rearrange the note cards, because I'll have one section, then I'll go through the note cards and say, "what would be interesting after this?" and I'll move that card to the second position and then type it all up together in that order and read it aloud until it starts to sound right.
beasley146	DB: When you type it up on a computer like that, what do you—I guess I'm wondering where this all resides on your computer. Do you have a folder for notes and lines, and then a folder for, like, poems that are starting to come to fruition?	[00:30:00]
beasley147	BB: Would you like to see an example?
beasley148	DB: Sure.
beasley149	BB: What I do typically is, within that file where I have all the ruminations and free associations and that kind of stuff—
beasley150	DB: What do you call that file?
beasley151	BB: You see—well, I'll show you. Sometimes I'll just call it by the name of the month to make it easier, like "June 2014." But often, I'll give it a title less thematic instead. Like I might call—the thing I was just working on, I might call it "Damaged Self," something like that. I like doing that, except that it's hard then to go back and figure out when that was written. So, I've started just calling them just, "June 2014." So when I got back to print them all out then I—
beasley152	DB: You know what order to put in there—
beasley153	BB: I know where, what's what, and I started organizing them by year on my computer. So under "My Documents," I have a file called "Poems." Within it I'll have—I don't know if you can see this—"2011," "2012," "2013," drafts of my book manuscript, All Soul Parts Returned, various other things. Within "2013," I have "Early summer 2013," "Ecclesiastes," "January 2013," "Late Summer 2013," things like that.
beasley154	DB: Those are the files—those are the folders that will hold the individual poem?
beasley155	BB: Yeah. So then I have drafts of a poem I was working on called "Speech for a Speed Date." This is a poem I wrote partly by taking the first poem I ever wrote when I was 12 years old and running it through Google Translate, through just about every language that they offer, until it came back completely deformed and defaced—and still, it was a really corny poem called "Light A Single Candle." It became speech—kind of a surrealistic speech for a speed date: "Do you enjoy the hiss of candle wax and cigarette ash? Do your hobbies include a love of what cannot die?" Some of which came out of those translations.	[00:32:58]
beasley156	Then I'll have this kind of list of what's going on, and drafts of a poem called "Reading Jesus Again With a New Prescription." You'll see I have a whole bunch of lines that I'm working on, and what I often do is just copy those, and write some prose about them—sort of identifying what I like about it and what's bugging me about it, what I don't like about it—and then paste it back again, move things around. Often, I'll put bold face when this is a revision process, when I get to a place that I don't like or feels clunky, I'll bold face it so that I can come back to it and just say, "What am I going to do to fix that?" Then the next draft I'll cut it or change it or—here's a whole section, it's all in bold face. I think I ended up cutting it. This is a fairly long poem so there are a lot of drafts of it. Then I'll copy it over and over until I get it the way I want it.
beasley157	DB: So, all drafts are in one file?	[00:33:55]
beasley158	BB: Yeah.
beasley159	DB: And you just keep copying and replacing and bolding parts that you have problems with?
beasley160	BB: Yeah.
beasley161	DB: And then as it gets towards the end of the file, it's getting towards its final form.
beasley162	BB: So, like here I'll have the draft of that "Speech for Speed Date," and then I'll say: "The cling of cigarette ash to candle wax feels a little bland, intensify it"—I'll sort of give myself instructions like that. "Tallow" might be a better word than "candle wax." "Do you enjoy the cling of cigarette ash to tallow?" and various versions of it. You'll see I've got, like: draft, draft, draft—probably ten or more drafts of it in here.	[00:35:00]
beasley163	DB: So, I'm interested in the Google Translate stuff. Have you done that before, or it's just the first time?
beasley164	BB: This is the first time I did that. Well, no, actually I did that partly with one of the poems in Theophobia. It's a poem about the Gospels and a meditation on the gospels. I'm forgetting the title of it right now. I've got it right here somewhere. Yes, a poem called "The Kingdom of God is Not Ushered In With Pump and Exclamations."
beasley165	What I did with that is I took some of the passages of the Gospels and ran it through Google Translate to see what would happen to it. So they would be partly recognizable from the Gospels, but partly different and estranged. I didn't use exactly the phrasings that came out of Google Translate, but allowed it to shake up the familiar, biblical, canonical sayings in such a way that it became stranger, and gave me ideas for rephrasing things.
beasley166	DB: Before that have you ever done any similar practices?
beasley167	BB: Not that I can think of.
beasley168	DB: Have there been any other computer kind of enhanced ways of composing poems?
beasley169	BB: Not computer enhanced. A lot of aleatory practices, like the dice I mentioned in sense—in The Corpse Flower called "The Craps Hymnal," where I rolled dice everyday for a period of several months and went to a page in the dictionary, and worked that way.
beasley170	DB: In The Corpse Flower they have the dice as the—so how did you do that? Did you work with the publisher to do that—to have the dice appear above the title?	[00:37:09]
beasley171	BB: I had it in my manuscript.
beasley172	DB: You did have it in the original?
beasley173	BB: Somebody who read the manuscript said, "No publisher is ever going to do this. They are not going to reproduce dice on every—" I said, "Yes, they are. They have to. It's part of the poem." University of Washington Press, they were great about it, they agreed to do that.
beasley174	DB: Good. And you also—is it in that poem, or it's another poem where you have like bolded but shadowed—?
beasley175	BB: In "The Rotbox."
beasley176	DB: Yeah. Where did that come from, I guess?
beasley177	BB: That came from a good friend of mine who is a geologist, and he collects animal bones as part of his research. He's very interested in the physiology of animal skeletons but he had on his property up in the country, this thing he called the rotbox where he would take animal carcasses and allow them to rot over winter, and then have a day in the fall where he would harvest, he called "harvesting a rotbox."	[00:38:15]
beasley178	I went with him, and it actually happened to be the day that the war in Afghanistan started. So, I spent the whole morning helping him harvest this rotbox, which is a matter of taking these skeletons out of this big decomposing pit, and cleaning them with bleach and other stuff. It was, I don't remember—cow skulls, I don't know. I'm not sure what it was. So, I spent the whole morning with him doing that and then, as I was driving home, I was just still stinking of decomposition—
beasley179	DB: Did you volunteer for this job?	[00:38:49]
beasley180	BB: He called me up and said, "I'm harvesting the rotbox, you want to come?" I went, "Yeah. Hell yeah." So, our friendship began really because we hardly knew each other at that time. But all the way home from the county, I was listening to the radio and the bombing had started—"Shock and Awe" had started in Afghanistan. I was thinking about things that did decompose, and words and phrases that decompose into other words and phrases.
beasley181	DB: How were you able to do that on your computer? Were you sort of experimenting with the fonts, and—?
beasley182	BB: Yeah. I think what I did is used a larger outline font.
beasley183	DB: Okay.
beasley184	BB: So that the letters would look hollowed out.	[00:40:00]
beasley185	DB: Before the computer, did you ever have inclinations to use, sort of, fonts like that? Or do any sort of things—?
beasley186	BB: No, I didn't. I'm very interested in some of the visual poets, poets like Ronald Johnson. His early work which is all typewriter-based, but he does some amazing things with the shape of the words and the appearance of the words using the typewriter.
beasley187	DB: A lot of your poems, especially Signs and Abominations, where you use a lot of punctuation to kind of indicate either definitions coming or stuff like that—some of that is rote, but some of it, it seems, that you made up yourself. Is that—how did that come about, I guess is the question?
beasley188	BB: I'm using a lot of punctuation in this new manuscript. Let me show you. Punctuation is a kind of separation of sections, but also is a kind of an element of meaning in the poem. So, this poem has a single asterisk for the first section, two for the second, three for the third, and so on. Others have crosses, dividing sections—which mean to suggest that Christian cross, of course, but also the sign of addition, each section being an addition to the previous one.
beasley189	Let's see what else. One of my readers for this manuscript said they found it distracting, another said they found it exciting. I'm hoping for the exciting. Here I have a kind of version of—this is the one the Bruce Beasley poems. It's kind of a version of the "does not equal" sign, because I'm writing about this geometrical shape, I'm working with the geometrical shapes of punctuation and typography. And that, I suppose—well, you can do that on a typewriter. That's an imported symbol from my computer, a mediated text; so in that way I think...here I'm talking about the Korean letter, which has no sound. You have to put it—I'm learning Korean with my son, who is Korean—it's a letter you have to put in front of a vowel sound, because vowels can't come first in a word in Korean. So, if you begin with a vowel like an "A," you have to put this null of a consonant in front of it. But it also resembles an egg, or a zero. So, I'm working visually with the sound of that. There is a consonant shaped like an egg balanced on its end that stands for nothing, makes no sound, and I'm connecting that to certain hollow geometrical structures and Bruce Beasley sculptures. Does that answer your question?
beasley190	DB: Yeah, yeah.
beasley191	BB: This is a poem that's based on Empedocles, the ancient philosopher who believed that in primordial times, there were body parts scattered all over the world, disconnected—hearts and lungs and livers—and that they gradually morphed together and created monstrous, grotesque amalgamation of body parts, until eventually they came to a point where the body parts worked together and formed human beings and animals. So, here I have stray syllables scattered all over the page. That, coming together and trying to form words—like "formal," "chasmal," "malform," "fictile," "fickle," "cavern," "us," "Venus," "knee," "halo"—stray syllables sort of groping together to form words, and by the end of the poem, it goes on—you are left with shape, the omega, and this is also meant to indicate the womb—so a lot of visual shape. By the time the poem gets to the end, this makes perfect sense. The words—the syllables have come together into words, and the words have come together into sentences, and the sentences are coherent units of meaning.	[00:43:25]
beasley192	DB: Do you write out the sentences in a more like prose style to make sure that they are working like that? How do you get from the notes, the line notes or the notes in your computer to something that's shaped, I guess is a newer thing?
beasley193	BB: You'd be terrified with the drafts of that poem, because I have several hundred syllables and in the drafts—the rule of the poem is that once a syllable is introduced, it has to be repeated elsewhere in the poem. It has to keep repeating and recombining with other syllables. So I have pages and pages of syllables in alphabetical order and when they repeat, I would scratch some out. So I have "ac" and it formed "accident" and then it would come back as "accumulate." But any syllable that was introduced that didn't echo somewhere else in the poem, I would have to keep revising until it came back. So, in the beginning it was just a list of syllables—not even words, just syllables.
beasley194	DB: I guess I'm interested, then—like, your early work is less disjunctively broken. So, when did that come in, and why did that come in?	[00:45:00]
beasley195	BB: It started in late '90s, I guess. Signs and Abominations was a big break, I think, in poetics for me. I became much more interested in fragmentation and disruption, and imitating disruptive states of mind and disruptive states of knowledge with disruptions in the poems themselves. Whereas before that, I had been very interested in a kind of well-made poem that was coherent and imagistic and lyrical. I got bored with that mode and wanted to allow the poems to become stranger and more broken, and more intuitive and less logical, less linear.	[00:45:45]
beasley196	DB: And it seems like you've kind of gone—you went down that path, and now you've gone down that path further into, oddly, a more kind of ordered shape—a visual shape—but, so how does sound work in that sense, then? You say when you are revising you are reading them out loud—how do you read aloud a poem shaped like an omega?
beasley197	BB: I have a very particular way of reading it where I try to space out the sounds of the letters that are on either side of the omega, so that that central absence is there, and it's formed by sounds rather than a visual shape on the page.
beasley198	DB: I guess I'm thinking to some of your Cage references right away when you say that. Is he a figure that came in later to kind of push forward some of those poetics as well or—?
beasley199	BB: Yeah, Cage did. A lot of his ideas were important, especially when I was doing the aleatory sequence with the dice and things like that. Reading Paul Celan was hugely important. I think I first read Celan in the '90s and he's become a giant, really important figure for me, and largely that his work speaks to me so intensely without me knowing what it's saying on any rational level.
beasley200	DB: Does that mean you are reading it in the German?	[00:47:42]
beasley201	BB: No, but even in translation—it's magnificent to me, but I would be very hard put to say what it means.
beasley202	DB: I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
beasley203	BB: Yeah. A version I have been reading that—"Streak in the eyes so that a sign be preserved to drag through darkness, restored to life by sand or ice"—that is magnificently suggestive to me, but I would not be able to paraphrase it. I have been working toward a kind of poetics that's much less paraphraseable.
beasley204	DB: In the notes and what not, do you think you could trace like a—a poetics, like the progression of your poetics? Like in these notes and in these prose things that you write while you are writing the poems?
beasley205	BB: Yes.
beasley206	DB: So, you start to kind of reason with yourself or something like that?
beasley207	BB: I talk to myself, yeah, which is a way of thinking, but it's a different way of thinking than at least I normally think. You don't talk to yourself—at least I don't talk to myself most of the time when I'm thinking. But when I'm writing these sort of meditations on the computer, I'm literally talking to myself. I'm saying, "I want to do this. Why do I want to do this?" I'm asking myself questions.
beasley208	DB: So, you are sort of interrogating your own practice while you are practicing?
beasley209	BB: Yeah, exactly.
beasley210	DB: And you've been doing that the whole time, pretty much?
beasley211	BB: Yeah.	[00:49:49]
beasley212	DB: Were you taught—were you taught this? I guess it's an interesting practice and I'm wondering where it comes from.
beasley213	BB: Was I taught it? No. I remember doing it in college a lot. I thought of it then as automatic writing.
beasley214	DB: Yeah.	[00:50:00]
beasley215	BB: And I guess I was introduced to the idea of automatic writing where you just write whatever comes in your mind as a generative practice. For me, automatic writing sort of became a "talking my through" a poem, or into a poem, and it's a practice I have kept. I don't think of it as automatic writing anymore. I think of it as just writing—just the way I write.
beasley216	DB: One question that I kind of have from a little earlier is when you are doing this writing in prose and then you have the collections of notebooks that were written on the typewriter—so they weren't saved in files like they are now?
beasley217	BB: That's right.
beasley218	DB: So, you couldn't go back at the end of the year and print them out. So, how would you print those out?
beasley219	BB: Daily.
beasley220	DB: Daily?
beasley221	BB: Yeah.
beasley222	DB: Okay. And you collect them daily, too? So, you've been using—
beasley223	BB: No, it's literary typing. So, on a typewriter I'll just save the pages and bind them into a notebook.
beasley224	DB: Would you do the same thing—kind of a ritualistic, year-end thing—where you gather them all together, or were they just are coming together?
beasley225	BB: I would just keep them in a box, I think, until the end of the year, and then bind them up into a notebook.
beasley226	DB: Yeah. Is this something you do like every New Year's Day?
beasley227	BB: No. Not in any particular time.
beasley228	DB: Just at the end of the year sometime you like go, "I should—?"
beasley229	BB: Usually around the beginning of summer, because I'm sort of looking back on what I've written the year before and have time to focus on things like that.
beasley230	DB: So, like now would be a time?
beasley231	BB: Now—I'll probably do the last six months of the last year sometime soon this summer.
beasley232	DB: Okay. So, we've talked a lot about the kind of composition. We've talked some about the revision. Has the revision changed much over your career? When you introduced this more disjunctive line break, essentially, and got more fragmentary, did the revising process change?
beasley233	BB: It did in that it used to be much more into clarity, clarity would be a big thing I would revise toward, in terms of driving out of the poem anything that didn't obviously belong to it thematically or imagistically. That's no longer really a concern because there are all kinds of things happening in my poems now that don't obviously belong together. So, it's much more intuitive than that, I guess. But I have a general sense of what I want a poem to be doing—what is in it, what isn't in it, and why—but clarity is not the thing that determines that anymore.	[00:52:00]
beasley234	DB: Right. Would you say that you—are you driven by a certain—are they driven by sound, by meaning? What's the driving force of the revision, and has that changed? You've kind of said this—you were moving more towards clarity—but now, is there a sense that the sound is more prominent now, or that you—?
beasley235	BB: The sound is definitely more prominent now, but also I'm paying much more attention to the shape of words on the page, the visual appearance of the words, and to the—let me show you an example from this.
beasley236	DB: To be clear, you do work in Microsoft Word predominantly?
beasley237	BB: Yes. Okay, so this is a poem that was published in The Gettysburg Review that's in the manuscript, and it's a poem about jellyfish, moon jellies in particular. It's called "Such and Such and Such and Such," where I play with the expression "such and such," but also the Buddhist concept of "suchness," which is a term that means "emptiness" in Buddhism, but it also means particularity, radical particularity. The "suchness" of a thing is its particularity, but it's also the awareness that it's empty. That it has no ultimate reality, and that it's changeable.
beasley238	So I started this poem out eventually by moving the lines around. I can't stop watching the YouTube of these moon jellies, yanking their translucence inside out, over and over, and getting nowhere. So this is a poem that is in four sections because I'm playing with quaternity—"fourness." I have many drafts here, and part of the revision process was condensation—I felt it's too long—so there I wrote, there, "It's not bad,
beasley239	BB: condense a bit down to thirty-two lines rather than forty." So typing it up is part of whatever else you are doing—
beasley240	DB: Making a note as to what that revision did in the revision?	[00:55:00]
beasley241	BB: Yeah.
beasley242	DB: Is that something you do?
beasley243	BB: Always. Then I went through each section, cutting things out, adding things—"some of the lineation feels clunky, I need to read through and adjust, pretty happy with that now"—so, that kind of thing. Revising more for condensation and surprise, I guess—disruption and surprise rather than clarity and consistency.
beasley244	DB: But still—you said you were working with the four-parts theme.	[00:55:19]
beasley245	BB: Yeah.
beasley246	DB: So, you do impose a certain order on it as well, right? That seems something you do quite a bit.
beasley247	BB: Yeah.
beasley248	DB: In terms of different things you do, and then also quotations, etc.
beasley249	So: we've gone through revision, we've gone through composition a little bit—well, not a little bit, a lot bit. How do these become a book, then, I guess, is the question there?
beasley250	BB: I've been working on exactly that. This book is called All Soul Parts Returned. I'm still pointing to the title here—I have All Soul Parts. It started—the concept of the book started with a friend who gave me a pamphlet. I was going through some difficult time emotionally about something, I don't remember what it was—but he had somebody hand him a pamphlet that a New Age shaman gave him, and it was a pamphlet that said, "Come to this workshop for $375. You can consult with a shaman who will travel into non-ordinary reality and find your missing soul parts and bring them back to you." It said that the cause of all emotional turmoil, upset, unhappiness was that parts of your soul had broken off and gone away, and they had to be returned and they could only be returned by a professional. The professional travels into a mystical state and finds your soul parts, and the pamphlet had this statement on it: "All soul parts returned for a fee." I found that hilarious.
beasley251	I said, "That's the problem, my soul parts are gone." But as I started thinking about this poems in conjunction with each other, I realized it made a really, I think, rich metaphor for loss, for grief, for emotional pain, and that it pulled together a lot of the things I was dealing with in this manuscript. Also tonally, this manuscript is much lighter in tone, a lot more humor in it than in my other books.
beasley252	So the revision process has been one of moving things around and structuring poems in relation to each other. So, I've got three big parts of it. One part is a long poem called "The Mass of the Ordinary," which is a kind of contemporary mass with all the traditional sections of the Catholic mass—the kyrie, the gloria, and agnus dei, and all these parts of the mass—I really have that as one big chunk. It's about ten poems, fairly long poems. I had that all together in the beginning. Then I have a long series called "Praise Song for Schopenhauer," about philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. It's kind of an argument with Schopenhauer's pessimism.	[00:57:38]
beasley253	And like the mass, it's pulling toward orthodoxy and traditional Catholic faith. I'm a converted Catholic, and the Schopenhauer poems that are pulling towards pessimism and nihilism and philosophical despair. Originally, I had started with the mass and ended with the Schopenhauer poem; that wasn't working, because it ended with the book being very despairing in a way I didn't want it to be. So the way I'm doing now is I have broken the mass poems and the Schopenhauer poems up, and they are interspersed all the way through the manuscript as a kind of two tugging, contrasting motifs that are arguing with each other all the way through.
beasley254	DB: So does the composition of a book like this feel a lot like the composition
beasley255	DB: of an individual poem? I mean, is it fractal-like, in that sense?
beasley256	BB: It does, exactly like that.	[01:00:00]
beasley257	DB: Has that been the case in your entire career?
beasley258	BB: Yeah. It feels exactly like a large poem, in that now the individual poems are the stanzas—do to the book what the stanzas do to a poem—which means you can move them around and the poem changes meaning drastically according to where you start and where you end.
beasley259	DB: Do you change the poems, too, once they are in this order? So you're still working on the poems and you're working on the book at the same time?
beasley260	BB: I revise my poems to help them illustrate the structure of the book. I have a poem that I wrote—when I was on sabbatical, I wrote a poem—I had to write a report to the provost where you tell them what you did on your sabbatical. And I got the idea that I would write that as a poem. So the poem is called "Report To The Provost On The Progress Of My Leave."
beasley261	So I decided at one point that this is a poem about losing your soul parts and losing parts of yourself. So I thought what if—and I was talking to a friend of mine, and I said, "Wait, what if I put the leave poem first, because then it begins with the leaving?" And the first line of that, when I revised it, I realized I could move this to the beginning of the poem and thus the beginning of the book was "I've gone missing, the way someone else might go drinking or caroling."
beasley262	So now the book is called All Soul Parts Returned, and it starts with losing myself, losing control of myself—emotionally, psychologically, spiritually—it starts with sort of losing connection with yourself, and then ends now with coming back of the self. So the way I've got an ending now—and this is still in process, but I think it's going to go this way—it's ending now with a section that says, "I'm here with most of my soul parts. None of us just wishing we were here." So it goes from losing soul parts to regaining them, because I wanted the title All Soul Parts Returned to be ironic, but also to be what happens in the process of the book—so the book being the act of personal shamanism that brings back the missing parts of yourself and reintegrates the self.
beasley263	DB: So you become the professional, in some way.
beasley264	BB: Yeah, on returning my own soul parts!
beasley265	DB: Yeah, that's it.	[01:02:39]
beasley266	BB: But I've showed the manuscript to several friends and other poets, and I haven't felt like the overall metaphor I'm working toward is coming through clearly enough. And I think it is partly because this idea of soul part retrieval is so alien to people who aren't in that subculture. So what I'm planning to do now, and I'm planning to start on it next week, even, is a brief lyrical introduction that describes what "soul retrieval" is, and describes, the shamanist's belief—that every time you endure any kind of trauma, a part of your soul leaves you and that your soul diminished because you've lost parts of your soul that are no longer accessible, and if they can be restored, then you'll be restored the wholeness.
beasley267	But one of the epigraphs I have here—this is an epigraph—it's from a New Age website and it's a "Frequently Asked Questions." One of the questions is, "My soul parts don't like me," and this is from somebody who got their soul parts back, but now find that their soul parts are unhappy to be there. The answer is, "Of course they don't like you, but it's good that you know how they feel. First you betrayed them by sending them away, then you forgot them and left them there. Now that they are back, they discover that you are boring."
beasley268	DB: That's good.
beasley269	BB: What I'm trying to get at there is that even if you can get your soul parts back, they may not be happy to be there, because the soul is not a unit but a series of bickering parts.
beasley270	DB: Yeah. I think it's in Theophobia where you mentioned—was there a website of "Seldomly Asked Questions"?
beasley271	BB: I did write that out, yeah.	[01:04:24]
beasley272	DB: Okay, I thought that was the funniest thing I'd heard in quite a while. I was like—because I'm building a website now for the library, and that would be really good—I've got an FAQ, but what about "Seldomly Asked Questions"—that would be a really funny page. So you seem to use the internet as content and as fodder for poems—starting, obviously, sometime around the early 2000's. Where does the internet lie in kind of your practice? I mean, I've seen printouts in here,
beasley273	DB: and I see—you definitely used a lot etymology and stuff. Do you go to the internet for that?
beasley274	BB: I do. I go to the Oxford English OED Online frequently, and I have poems in here that came out of OED definitions that are on the internet. There's a poem, I have in here. It was in The Kenyon Review called "Mean, Mean It," and it came out of—I was teaching a class on "Dreams and Poetry" and we were trying to define what dreams mean and what poems mean. I got the idea in class, "Let's pull up the OED online," and looked at what the word "mean" means. I did that—so I had it up on screen in the classroom, and one of the definitions of "mean" was an archaic definition that it used to mean "to lament or to mourn." So we were talking about even the word "mean" has multiple meanings that it didn't mean to mean, and how dreams are multiple and poems are multiple—but the word "mean," it could be words—even words are so multiple that you can't delimit their flux.	[01::05:00]
beasley275	So I kept thinking about that and I was writing a poem called "Mean, Mean It," which is about the idea that meaning has lamentation or mourning lumped into it, because meaning can't be controlled. It can't be packaged, it can't be narrowed down. There is something wonderful about that, but there is something mournful about it, too.
beasley276	DB: Before the internet became something that you were able to use more easily, what would you turn to to kind of do this sort of work? I mean, were you doing this sort of work? Where you—?	[01:06:16]
beasley277	BB: I was, much more in the library than I am now.
beasley278	DB: Okay. The internet meant leaving the library in some ways?
beasley279	BB: Yeah. I still spend a lot of time in libraries, but yeah. It allows me to do things right here that I used to have to go to a library for.
beasley280	DB: How much does research inform the poems? Obviously a huge amount and how does that work in relationship?
beasley281	BB: I'm usually researching while I'm writing those paragraphs of sort of thinking and then stray lines. I'm often wondering things like—one of my poems I have in this manuscript has the line, "I keep wondering if mass and massacre have some common root." Then I'll go to the internet and search "mass" and "massacre" and copy from the OED—the definitions and the etymologies—and paste them into the document I'm working on, that kind of thing.
beasley282	Or I'll start thinking about soul retrieval, and I'll go to a whole bunch of soul retrieval websites and see what kind of promises they're making. I find it hilarious that a lot of them don't even do it in person. You send them $350 through PayPal and they claim that they—from their own home in Virginia, or whatever it is—a journey into non-ordinary reality and retrieve your soul parts. And one of the questions is, "Don't you need to be with me in order to bring back my soul parts?" "Oh no! Your soul parts can be brought back to you spiritually;" and, "Is there a difference between soul retrievals that you do in person and ones that you do from a distance?" "Oh no. There is no difference at all." People are actually paying people hundreds of dollars to claim their—return their soul parts, but they have never even met them.
beasley283	At least if you do it in person, they blow it—they will supposedly blow it into your mouth. They get the soul parts and they kinda blow the soul parts into your lungs.
beasley284	DB: Did you, as research, get your soul parts returned to you? I guess is my—?
beasley285	BB: I thought about it, but no I haven't. I don't want to spend that much money.
beasley286	DB: Maybe you can get a grant?
beasley287	BB: There is somebody who lives here and teaches at Western who is an academic expert on soul retrieval.
beasley288	DB: Really?
beasley289	BB: Right now I'm thinking of going to talk to her, but I'm not sure if I could keep a straight face doing it, because she takes it very serious.
beasley290	DB: She doesn't offer the internet virtual soul retrieval?
beasley291	BB: She doesn't do them herself, I don't think. She does train people on how to do it.
beasley292	DB: Oh wow.
beasley293	So, I guess one thing you've mentioned in passing a couple of times are other people in the relationship to your process. Where do other people fit in? I know your wife is a poet and a writer, and you have—I'm sure—many poet friends. Are they part of the revision process, or are they more like kind of general book-level process? Where do they come in? Are you corresponding with them?
beasley294	BB: We read all of each other's work. We tend to read each other's work when we reach the point we call, "exhausting our resources," which means that you've revised enough that there is nothing in the draft that makes you—that you know you could improve. You've reached the point where you've done everything you can to it, and it's time to get somebody else's feedback. Suzanne will read my work, and she's a really great reader, and give me really honest feedback on what's working well and what needs work. And then I have, I don't know, four or five friends that I tend to share my work with. Usually after Suzanne has read it and I've revised it further, I'll send to them.
beasley295	With the book manuscript, too—this is a stack of different versions of it that three different friends have read, and that Suzanne has read. One of the things I'm doing this week is going through the manuscript with all three or four versions—with marginal comments from three different friends and from Suzanne—and I'm going to compare page by page and see where there are commonalities that they all agreed that something needs more work, where there are contradictions, and think through the contradictions.	[01:10:00]
beasley296	DB: Are these people that you work with, are they all poets themselves mostly or—?	[01:11:08]
beasley297	BB: Yeah.
beasley298	DB: Are they the same people who have been there the whole time, or has that changed throughout the course—?
beasley299	BB: Mostly. Some of them—two or three of them are people I went to graduate school with at Virginia. We had a writing group where we all met once a week while we were at grad school, and we've sort of continued over the years through the internet. One is a new friend, a poet I met who has just read my manuscript for me and I read his manuscript for him and it's been great—but this is new. I have never shared work with him before.
beasley300	DB: The ways that you've corresponded, I guess, earlier were by mail. Are you still mostly doing—I mean, those were physical objects—that you mostly send the manuscript to them or email the manuscript and then they send you back—?
beasley301	BB: Email the manuscript and they send me back—
beasley302	DB: —notes and all that? You can have that through for that. That's nice.
beasley303	BB: Yeah.
beasley304	DB: I think that's going to be—
beasley305	BB: I have over here in my file cabinet a file called "Poems: Feedback from Readers," where I keep all the physical copies of all the poems that have come back from the people I've shown them to, which I use a lot in revising.
beasley306	DB: I think we are pretty close. I would like to ask, kind of, the blunt question of this research, which is—I don't know, I mean, it's always all over the place—but: do you think anything fundamentally changed when you started to use computers more for your writing, or do you think those practices that you had before are just somehow metaphorically the same in a different kind of context?
beasley307	BB: I would say it has influenced the content of my poems more than the composition process. It has influenced the context. Computers and internet have influenced the content of my poems a lot, doing a lot with websites, with that kind of radical interconnectivity of associative thinking that the internet suggests. I think that the dawn of the internet probably has changed the way I compose my poetics in certain way, and that it has given permission for more associative, mimetic thinking process that I associate with internet links.	[01:12:42]
beasley308	I have a poem called "Hyperlinks" in Signs and Abominations that is a poem about thinking the way the internet thinks, in a way—in that everything reminds you of something else, it takes you to another place, so each line of the poem leaps from one idea to another that's only tangentially related to it. There are certain obsessive themes in that poem having to do with the birth of my son and adoption, and purification and rituals of sort of preparing for fatherhood—but they are oblique and they're associative.
beasley309	And that, I think, was one of the first poems where I consciously wrote a poem whose thinking was related to the way I think the internet thinks—if we can call the internet a "thinker."
beasley310	In some ways it is, you know what I mean?
beasley311	DB: Yeah.
beasley312	BB: But it hasn't really changed my composition process a whole lot, because I was doing on typewriters what I'm now doing on computers. It's made it easier to cut and paste, and to move things around.
beasley313	BB: But I often do that on notecards and writing anyway, rather than on the computer—because there is something about writing out the sections of a poem on a card and then moving them around that I find more satisfying even than doing it on the computer. I'm using—especially in my newest poems—a lot of material that's based on the physicality of icons and things that are possible from a computer.
beasley314	Let me show you some other example. Here's some more shapes that I am using in that poem: there is an X and a Y and then an omega. I'm using here reproductions of the Bruce Beasley's sculptures, which of course, would be possible without the internet, but I'm doing more visual collisions between text and image that is suggested by the internet.	[01:15:00]
beasley315	DB: Yeah. Well, that's it.
beasley316	BB: Okay.
beasley317	DB: Thank you very much.
beasley318	BB: Thank you.
beasley319	DB: That was great.
beasley320		[01:16:30]
gerstler1	Devin Becker: Let's start this going. This will just catch both of us better.	[00:00:00]
gerstler2	Amy Gerstler: OK.
gerstler3	DB: [to Gerstler's dogs] Hi, guys! Hi! Do you want to get interviewed, too?
gerstler4	AG: I think they do.
gerstler5	DB: What do you want to be asked about?
gerstler6	AG: Digital bone recovery? Virtual meat?
gerstler7	DB: Did you see all the, like, new fandangled pet things? They can have a plug-in thing where you can teleconference with your pet and give them a treat. It's called, like, iCPooch.
gerstler8	AG: I know they have some things for people who are gone a lot where you can-like your baby, or with your dog-you can watch them.
gerstler9	DB: Right. And this one, apparently, it's like you put it on the ground level and it has kind of like a dispenser.
gerstler10	AG: Unbelievable!
gerstler11	DB: And so you can, like, say, "Come here!" and it gives them a treat.
gerstler12	AG: A robot gives them a treat!
gerstler13	DB: It is something else, for sure. And there's like automatic fetch machines now and all sorts of stuff. I was kind of fascinated.
gerstler14	AG: Wow!
gerstler15	DB: OK, so, this will take an hour, an hour and a half. If you feel-if you need to get a drink of water, you know, or go to the bathroom, it's fine.
gerstler16	AG: OK, same for you.
gerstler17	DB: Yeah, and I have-It's kind of in three sections.
gerstler18	AG: OK.
gerstler19	DB: The first section is kind of a more quick, short-answer stuff about what you're doing now.
gerstler20	AG: Oh, OK.
gerstler21	DB: And it's based off the thing that-I don't know-have you met Collier Nogues, who was in my year? She didn't actually-she wasn't in the in the class with us.
gerstler22	AG: No, I don't think so.
gerstler23	DB: But she has a book from Four Way, and she's-
gerstler24	AG: Nice.
gerstler25	DB: Anyway, we did an article earlier that interviewed kind of emerging poets about how they did this. So, these questions are from that. And then we'll talk more about kind of the span of your career and how the processes have changed, or not changed, with the computer. But it's more-I mean, it's not-you don't need to-like if you feel like you need to talk about it, or if you don't, we'll just talk about how you work and how that goes. And then the third one will be kind of a series of questions more about, I guess, your feelings about the computer, and that will be it.
gerstler26	AG: Alright!
gerstler27	DB: Ok, so this is the section where we talk about how you're working, currently. So, if you wouldn't mind stating your name, your date of birth, and where we are right now?
gerstler28	AG: OK. So, my name is Amy Gerstler. I was born on October 24th, 1956, and we're in the area of Los Angeles, California, USA that's called Echo Park, which is close to downtown, close to Dodger's Stadium.
gerstler29	DB: OK. And also joining us is?
gerstler30	AG: Also joining us as guest stars-taking all the glory, as is appropriate-is Ted, the dog, and Gus, the dog.
gerstler31	DB: Yeah, OK. So, what genres do you work in?
gerstler32	AG: I write poetry. I do different kinds of journalism, more in the past than currently, but still some. I used to do a fair amount of art journalism, like reviews and sometimes catalog pieces, and sometimes essays about visual art. And I did other kinds of general journalism.
gerstler33	DB: OK, and what would you say your primary genre is?
gerstler34	AG: And I've written some Non-fiction and a teeny bit of fiction. Sort of.
gerstler35	DB: Alright, so all of them, essentially. Many.
gerstler36	AG: And hybrid stuff, too.
gerstler37	DB: Yeah, but your primary genre is-?
gerstler38	AG: Poetry. And a little bit of non-fiction sometimes in journalism.
gerstler39	DB: OK. What kinds of devices do you have, or own, have access to for your writing? What computer devices?
gerstler40	AG: This laptop is my home computer. And then I have two sort of travel ones. One is a MacBook Air, which is like this but much lighter and thinner. And then one is an iPad mini, which I don't write on that much, but I write on a little, and it's like an iPad but it's a little smaller. It's like kind of purse size.	[00:03:51]
gerstler41	DB: Yeah. So, you have then-you have three devices on which you kind of write between?
gerstler42	AG: That's right.
gerstler43	DB: How do you share the documents? Do you share documents between the three? Or do you just send them to yourself?
gerstler44	AG: I like tech and I like computers, but I'm not as savvy as I should be. So, I send things to myself via email. That's usually the main way I do it. Sometimes I can plug them in to each other and have them share.
gerstler45	DB: Yeah. And so they're all Macs?	[00:05:03]
gerstler46	AG: Yes.
gerstler47	DB: And this is your primary device, though, you would say?
gerstler48	AG: Yes.
gerstler49	DB: OK.
gerstler50	AG: There's also one at work, but I just use that for work.
gerstler51	DB: OK. You don't use that to actually write?
gerstler52	AG: It's for work.
gerstler53	DB: Yeah. In addition to your own devices, are you using physical-are you using handwriting, or notebooks, or anything?
gerstler54	AG: Sure.
gerstler55	DB: And so, how-what's sort of the ratio between the two?
gerstler56	AG: Ratio?
gerstler57	DB: I mean, how much are you working on kind of the physical formats, versus digital formats, I guess? And we'll get back to this, so, this isn't-we can talk about it later, too.
gerstler58	AG: I think actual writing is almost all on computers now, but note-taking is probably 75% notebook and pen, and 25% take notes on the computer.
gerstler59	DB: At what point would your notes kind of lead in-like, say, a physical note-lead in to a computer document? Do they usually lead to a poem like that, or is that a different-?
gerstler60	AG: Yeah, I often-my sort of poetry practice involves weird, different kinds of research.
gerstler61	DB: Yeah.
gerstler62	AG: And so that's digital because a lot of the research I do now was online, and I often print things out, and then either highlight parts of them and use them or take notes out of books, or take notes off of websites on paper and then input it.
gerstler63	DB: OK.
gerstler64	AG: Does that answer the question?
gerstler65	DB: Yeah, and some of these will be a little repetitive, and I hope that doesn't bother you, but it's just the way-
gerstler66	AG: No, not at all! When you're trying to gather data-
gerstler67	DB: Yeah. But we'll talk more about that.
gerstler68	AG: Yeah, yeah. I get that.
gerstler69	DB: OK, cool. In what format do you save your files?	[00:07:19]
gerstler70	AG: Word .docx
gerstler71	DB: OK. And as you're creating drafts of your-
gerstler72	AG: Unless someone needs a .pdf, or unless someone has an old computer and has to have .doc
gerstler73	DB: OK. And as you're working on individual pieces on your computer, do you save over what you've written, or do you save new drafts for each one? Or is it a combination?
gerstler74	AG: It's a combination.
gerstler75	DB: OK. What are your naming conventions for you files?
gerstler76	AG: The names change, because I was so happy when I realized that you could change the names. Because I start out-and this is more true of poems than anything else-but sometimes I'll start out calling something, you know, "Ostrich Parade," or something, and then by the time I get to the fifth draft, there are no ostriches in it anymore, and I'm going to remember something else in order to be able to find it quickly. So, I will change the name.
gerstler77	DB: So, the title is like a prompt for you own memory intentions?
gerstler78	AG: See, the title is a prompt for find-ability. Quick find-ability.
gerstler79	DB: OK. So it's not necessarily going to be the title. It's just maybe something that-	[00:08:46]
gerstler80	AG: That's right. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. And sometimes later on, down the line when I actually finally do title the thing, I will change the name again.
gerstler81	DB: Again?
gerstler82	AG: Yeah.
gerstler83	DB: OK. And as you're going through drafts, do you add numbers to the title?
gerstler84	AG: I do if I'm saving drafts. And what determines whether I save drafts is if I want to trash old drafts because I know I don't want to go back to them, if I think I might want to go back to them for some reason.
gerstler85	DB: Do you print out your writing to revise it?
gerstler86	AG: Sometimes, yeah.
gerstler87	DB: Sometimes.
gerstler88	AG: I'll do like a bunch of drafts, just revising on the computer. And then at certain points, I'll print it out and mark it up by hand, and then input the changes.
gerstler89	DB: Do you save any copies? Like, do you save those copies?
gerstler90	AG: No.
gerstler91	DB: No, they're just kind of means to the final product?
gerstler92	AG: Yeah.
gerstler93	DB: OK. Do you often back-up your work, your Word document files?
gerstler94	AG: I have Carbonite.
gerstler95	DB: OK, you do.
gerstler96	AG: Yeah.
gerstler97	DB: So, it's backed-up in the cloud, and it's just a folder on your computer?
gerstler98	AG: I've gone through all different kinds of back-up things. I've had all different kinds of viruses and crashes and-you know.
gerstler99	DB: Yeah. And so do you find this to be-
gerstler100	AG: I got religious about backing up.
gerstler101	DB: OK. So you've had experiences where you've lost-
gerstler102	AG: I've had viruses, and I've had bad computer crashes.
gerstler103	DB: OK. Anything where you lost significant work?
gerstler104	AG: Not so much, but the virus stuff destroyed a computer and was expensive, and really time consuming. And really nerve wracking.
gerstler105	DB: I know. Yeah.
gerstler106	AG: So, it was like, "Ugh! Never again, if possible."
gerstler107	DB: So, you have Carbonite, and they're all saved-do you connect that Carbonite folder to different devices, or you just have a folder on this device?	[00:10:53]
gerstler108	AG: I just have it on this device, because this is the central one.
gerstler109	DB: That's the central kind of location?
gerstler110	AG: There's nothing on-when I do things on other devices, I make sure they come here, if I care about them.
gerstler111	DB: Yeah, OK. When you say you're finished with the poem, is there a protocol for saving that in a certain place? Do you move it to a different place, or-?
gerstler112	AG: It goes in to a different folder, and I usually print out a hard copy, and I have sort of one of these kind of notebooks that I put it in to.
gerstler113	DB: Yeah. I have seen several-I think Bob Wrigley has that same one. OK. So, you do keep print copies of your final drafts. Are they organized? Are they leading to the next manuscript, essentially?
gerstler114	AG: Yeah, that's why, because that's the form that it's going to be in and delivered in if I'm lucky enough to get something published.
gerstler115	DB: OK.
gerstler116	AG: Right now, it's not-I'm not digital books, so I also want to be able to look at it in the form that it's going to exist in, and play with it.
gerstler117	DB: Once they're in that folder, do you still end up going back and revising, or-?
gerstler118	AG: Sure.
gerstler119	DB: OK. And are those usually smaller-I mean, do you ever go back and do large revisions in there, or do you usually kind of like moving lines or changing words, or-?
gerstler120	AG: It depends. I would say moderate revisions and also if you consider getting, you know, tossing poems off the team a "revision," then yeah. Yeah, I do a lot of that.
gerstler121	DB: Yeah. Do you have any sort of standard ways that you-once everything is done and finished-do you have like a standard archiving process, like where you have like a folder you never touch, or a place you keep all of those from before?	[00:12:40]
gerstler122	AG: Well, yeah, I have those from before, but also, if I'm lucky enough to publish a book, then there's a file here. That's what I send to the publisher.
gerstler123	DB: And you keep that with all your others, in that Carbonite folder with everything else?
gerstler124	AG: Well, Carbonite just backs-up everything, right?
gerstler125	DB: Right, right. Yeah.
gerstler126	AG: And then also allegedly, eventually, there's an actual book. So then it exists in at least three forms.
gerstler127	DB: OK. And do you consider-which one do you consider the kind of final product? Would it be the book, or-?
gerstler128	AG: Yeah, that's what I'm working towards. You know, the book with the cover and-at this point, you know, who knows what the future will bring.
gerstler129	DB: Yeah, I know. Have you ever received or sort out information about methods for working with your digital files or digital archiving?
gerstler130	AG: No. I mean, you know, I've talked to friends about what the best back-up systems are, and I've talked to people in the computer store about this because of aforementioned bad experiences. I wanted to have like five different systems and really be safe.
gerstler131	DB: OK, great. OK, well, that's the sort of "where are you now digitally" part. Just making sure everything is going. And, it is. That's great. [To the dogs] Sorry, I made you get up. You need to get up?
gerstler132	AG: Well he just needs to know what's going on. Don't you, Ted?
gerstler133	DB: Yeah.
gerstler134	AG: You do.
gerstler135	DB: He's such a cool dog.
gerstler136	AG: He is a great guy.
gerstler137	DB: Alright, so, this is more sort of, broadly-speaking. I have two to start, and then I'll explain a few things, and then we'll go forward. So, how long have you been writing professionally? And I know that's a wishy-washy term, but-	[00:14:46]
gerstler138	AG: No. I mean, I'm fifty-seven and I've been writing-you know, I started publishing, you know, small poems in school magazines, you know, back when I was in college, when I was, you know, 18, 19, 20. So if you start it there, then that amount of years. If you start it when I had, you know, my first chapbook, then it would have been like after I finished college.
gerstler139	DB: OK. Well-and this is kind of, I mean, leading up to the next question, which is kind of a broad question-but could you describe kind of the arc of your career? Like, you know, where it started, when you started to write the poems that you consider your poems, and then kind of how it moves through time up to now?
gerstler140	AG: Well, I published a small chapbook maybe a year or two after I finished college when I was 21. So-	[00:16:03]
gerstler141	DB: And where were you at college?
gerstler142	AG: I went to Pitzer College, which is one of the Claremont colleges there in California.
gerstler143	DB: And then-and you can talk about like who you studied with or anything like that-but you went from publishing a chapbook and then-? And then your first book was like 1981, or-?
gerstler144	AG: I had that. I was lucky enough to have this guy Dennis Cooper, who was kind of my mentor and friend. He had this wonderful press called Little Ceasar Press, and he did this small chapbook of mine. And then David Trinidad-who's this terrific poet who teaches at Columbia College in Chicago but used to live here for a long time-had a small press called Sherwood Press, and he did another chapbook of mine. And then after that, actually someone who wasn't my friend, who was actually almost a stranger, published an actual non-chapbook. Which is, you know, a book with a thin spine, but an actual spine, rather than staples or stitching.
gerstler145	DB: OK. And what book was that?
gerstler146	AG: That book was called Early Heaven
gerstler147	DB: OK.
gerstler148	AG: So, that was the first one that was a little bigger. And then I went on to publish around thirteen books-some of them chapbooks, some of them actual single volumes of poetry. And then some little odd projects like collaborative book with artists, or collaborative book with a fiction writer.
gerstler149	DB: OK. And during this time, were you teaching? Were you working at other-I mean, I guess, how were you supporting your writing?	[00:18:19]
gerstler150	AG: Well, I was going to be a Speech Pathologist and/or work with autistic kids. I was a child psychology major in college. I was always interested in poetry and loved it, and got to take a couple of classes at Pitzer from this amazing poet-who's not as well-known as he should be and isn't alive anymore-named Burt Myers. But I was kind of on the path to work with kids who had speech problems. But when I graduated from college, I wanted to have some time to work on my poetry because I've just been in school wall-to-wall, like many of us, straight from high school to college. So, I took some time off and I moved to L.A. I was accepted to a speech pathology program at Boston University, but I wanted to meet other writers and I wanted to try to make my writing better. And I started taking odd jobs. I worked for different doctors in the front office and in the back office-washing off instruments, answering phones. And I worked helping take care of a schizophrenic woman. I worked all kinds of funny, odd jobs. And that wanting to improve my writing, and read more, and write more, and learn more about poetry, and come in to contact with other writers kind of turned into my life. So, I'm still trying to make my poetry better and learn more and read more. And somewhere along the way, I got some jobs at a non-profit literary arts center that's called Beyond Baroque, which still exists in Venice. I worked there and in a bunch of different capacities, and at the library-a little tiny library, non-official library. Since you're one of those exalted breeds, a librarian. And I helped with the reading series and events and publicity, and did different jobs there. And then because my friend Dennis Cooper helped me get a little job writing art reviews for this magazine Art Forum, suddenly I was very lucky, and I was writing these monthly art reviews for Art Forum, which didn't pay very much, but it made people think that I was an art critic. So I couldn't get any teaching jobs teaching writing initially, but I did get hired as a kind of art critic. So, I started teaching in art school. And then as I published more and wrote more, and did more different kinds of journalism, I was able to get teaching jobs teaching writing. So, I worked at a bunch of different colleges, and I had a job at a little residency program-a wonderful program-, the writing seminars at Bennington College. So I'd go to Vermont twice a year, and I taught at USC and CalTech, and at my alma mater. I taught at the University of Utah, CalArts. A bunch of different places.
gerstler151	DB: Great. And now, now you're at University of California- Irvine.
gerstler152	AG: Well, I've had this job just for a year, and I was super lucky. I can't believe it-to get that job.
gerstler153	DB: Great. OK. So, that kind of gives us a framework to work in. And then I've sort of divided the sections in to kind of three-like we're talking about the process, and like, the first part, or sort of like the three-part process, the first part being kind of like compositional pre-writing, generative process, the second being revision-sort-of process, and the third, being organizational or archival, the part where you're kind of finishing, putting things in book form, etcetera. And we can talk about it in different ways, but if it works with your style, we'll just-
gerstler154	AG: Yeah, yeah.
gerstler155	DB: OK.
gerstler156	AG: I don't have a rubric I need to impose on this.
gerstler157	DB: Good, good. I made one up.
gerstler158	AG: Yeah, well, that structure is a good thing.
gerstler159	DB: OK. And so, what I'm going to ask is sort of like how you work in those structures at the beginning of your career, and maybe how those have changed. So, when you first started writing your sort of more professional work, what were your kind of compositional, pre-writing, note-taking, generative practices at that point?	[00:22:47]
gerstler160	AG: Well, this now gets to era and what generation I am, because I'm 57, so when I started writing it was typewriters, you know? I took a type a typewriter to college and it moved from-you know, I took typing in high school-and it went kind of quickly during my little time capsule of when I was sort of coming up. From portable typewriters and little cute cases that were sort of like a big lunch box with a little handle, to increasingly kind of complicated electric typewriters. With all their weird accouterments like carbon paper and white out, or weird-they started making typewriters that actually had a correcting tape in them. It was like white and you would type over the letter that you wanted to correct with this white, chalky strip that was in there as part of the typewriter. Before you had to like shove a weird little piece. So, all these kind of very low-tech-viewed in hindsight-ways of dealing with making texts, correcting texts, revising texts, and also copying text. And then to the first sort of big-I remember when, you know, I first got a computer. It was sort of like, you know, I was ZZ Top. I had a tall music system here-it was this big, bulky thing, and there were things that went under the desk. And the printer had like-the print was really ugly looking. Dot-?
gerstler161	DB: Dot matrix.
gerstler162	AG: Dot matrix. And it had these weird strips with holes that you tore. Then to, you know, this sleek, little improved several generations of smaller, better computers and printers.
gerstler163	DB: Yeah, and so, I guess, when you were still working with typewriters and the early computers, how were you creating, let's say, the poems? I mean like were you starting in a notebook and then moving, typing them out? Were you handwriting them and moving to typewriter, or did you start-?
gerstler164	AG: When I started writing poems when I was a kid-before I had access to a typewriter or learned to type-it was, you know, spiral-bound, lined notebooks. And then it kind of moved to typing things, which you'd think would have made me revise a lot, and I did revise, but I love computers. Every time you wanted to change a period, or move texts around, you had to retype everything. And you were sometimes dealing with these crappy kinds of paper like that onion skin-it was erasable, but it was so like thin and fragile and weird-looking, and tactilely bizarre, and kind of see-through-y. And made the poems seem like they were really not substantial. Smeared easily.
gerstler165	DB: So like when you had an idea for a poem, you would go directly to your typewriter and start typing, usually?
gerstler166	AG: I think I would write in notebooks and then at a certain point transfer what I had to the typewriter. Because the typewriter was something-it isn't actually easy to revise on a manual typewriter. I mean, you have to roll the thing out and mark it up. There really isn't an efficient way of marking things out, or inserting a list of possible words you might want to use instead of the word choice that you had. So, I think I would work on it up to a certain point and typing it was sort of like, "Oh, this is kind of an official draft. I really want to-"
gerstler167	DB: OK. So once you hit that point, and then you were starting to take shape to the real thing.
gerstler168	AG: Because typing something now-putting something on the computer makes it ultimately flexible, but it was sort of the opposite with the manual typewriter. It wasn't set in stone, but it was sort of typing it up-
gerstler169	DB: And you're saying, too, that once it was that you got to the typewriter stage, it didn't encourage that much revision because-?
gerstler170	AG: I did and I have old things that are, you know, typed scripts with lots of markings on them-blah, blah, blah-but it's just that revision on a computer is kind of a one-step process, in the sense that it stays within that medium. But in order to revise on a typewriter, you had to roll it out. You had to get a pen, you had to get white out, maybe you had to get an eraser. And then you had to put the changes on a new, clean-
gerstler171	DB: So, you would try to make-I mean, once it got to where you were doing that, it was pretty far along.
gerstler172	AG: Typing something up would be like a milestone every so often when you've been through a few drafts-to see it typed up, and to mark that up.	[00:29:31]
gerstler173	DB: When did you start to work on computers? And those early computers-did they did they feel like a drastic change?	[00:29:38]
gerstler174	AG: Oh, having this big machine, figuring out how to use it, and figuring out what it all meant, figuring out what a "word processor" was? You know, and it would have problems, and getting some dim concept of what an operating system was-DOS?-all these different things. And it really divided the sheep from the goats, because there were writers I knew who had the kinds of minds, or still do, that really worked well with computer interface, if that's even the right vocabulary. They just took to it. And there were other people who were always-it was always mysterious to them. It always felt foreign and robotic and bizarre, and they preferred other things, or were just always awkward with it, or always needed a lot of help. Who needed an intermediary helping them with their computer.
gerstler175	DB: And some still have that-
gerstler176	AG: No, I mean, computers are a particular thing, and if you have the kind of mind that works well with them, you can just zoom and you can device-up. And kids now, younger people now-who are born in to various stages of, "Well, it's the most natural thing in the world"-you know, you get your first iPhone when you're 4 months old. It's, you know, a language that they learn. It's a native language for them. But for some of us older people, it was... You were lucky if you were the kind of writer who... And I know people who... The wonderful poetry teacher that I had at Pitzer, Mike Harris, said that he liked the computer, and the typewriter. The feel, the pace, the sound of the keys. It's almost like a musical instrument for some writers. They kind of play it, and-
gerstler177	DB: But for you, that was never-
gerstler178	AG: What I like is I can take a chunk of text and move it up here and it doesn't take me 40 minutes to retype the whole damn thing. And if I don't like it, I can try it down here. And if I want to print out a copy of something as a prose poem, and a copy of it with some line breaks, and look at them next to each other, I can do that in a flash. All that? I couldn't be happier. Because then I'm spending my time reading and writing and revising, and not spending my time [makes typing sound]. "Oh! Now I have to do the whole thing all over again!"
gerstler179	DB: Yeah, so, I guess then, when they did come along you were in that spectrum of people who took to it fairly easily?	[00:33:00]
gerstler180	AG: I can't say that I'm techno-great, but I like computers.
gerstler181	DB: You didn't employ-I guess, employ's the word-employ an intermediary between you and your computer?
gerstler182	AG: I have friends who are tech-wizzes who I definitely-when I'm like, "How come all my email is now being spit back in to my box that I already downloaded, and I have 695 pieces of email?" You know, when I'm like, "Help!" I do that all the time. Or, "How do you make Word, you know, not turn everything purple, or-?" But I'm probably in the middle, I think of the spectrum. I wish I was one of those people who just understands everything at all levels, and could set up a website, and knows about programming, and can fix my own computer, and speak the lingo. But-I'm attracted to that and I'm interested in it. I'd like to be more conversant, but I can't say that I'm great. But I'm not the super scared, like, "I hate this thing. I have four manual things in the closet because that's what I really prefer."
gerstler183	DB: OK. I guess, can you pinpoint a timeframe when you started with computers? I mean, do you know where you were?	[00:34:25]
gerstler184	AG: Well, I remember when I was in college, a guy who I'm still friends with-this wonderful guy named Bryan Tucker who's a visual artist and also a very good art writer-he was one of those people who was like, the computer thing, it was like made in the shade for him. When we were in college, there was a computer there, but it took up a whole room, and he would like go in there and make things, and print things out. But there was a while between when I graduated from college in the 70s and when computers were sort of starting to make their way in to writers' lives, like in to their homes. So, I started probably-it would probably be the very beginning of the 80s, maybe, would be my best guess.
gerstler185	DB: Yeah. And I guess, how long did it take you to realize that you had these sort of capabilities that you'd maybe been wanting that you didn't even know, like the ability to move things around? I mean, was that initial, or did that take a couple of generations to where it felt really easy to do all that sort of thing?
gerstler186	AG: Well, some things-there were certain perks that manifested pretty immediately, like just having a copy of the thing and being able to print it out.
gerstler187	DB: Yeah, that was pretty amazing.
gerstler188	AG: Right away, that was like, "This is way better."
gerstler189	DB: OK.
gerstler190	AG: And being able to correct things and move them and change them.
gerstler191	DB: And that was immediate, like that was-?
gerstler192	AG: I mean, those are things that rudimentary computers-if memory serves-were able to do.
gerstler193	DB: Yeah, copy and paste being the-
gerstler194	AG: Yeah, you didn't have to like, you know, be the best friend of the Xerox machines always anymore. Right away, that's a life improvement.
gerstler195	DB: OK. And what were you using the Xerox machine for?
gerstler196	AG: If you wanted to send work out-I mean, this is pre-email, right? I mean, this is-You're making me feel such a dinosaur, antique! But that was inevitable.
gerstler197	DB: No, no!
gerstler198	AG: You know, so, if you wanted to apply for a grant, if you wanted to show somebody a copy of something, if you needed to send somebody a copy of something, if you wanted to send out a manuscript, if you wanted to send work to a magazine, all of that involved either carbon paper-yuck-or Xeroxing, right?
gerstler199	DB: OK, so that was kind of an early, organizational sort of work, there. So, you have this sort of beginning stage, you know, where the computer is this kind of revelation. Are there kind of stages between then and now that you could delineate, or is it just sort of a gradual-?	[00:37:25]
gerstler200	AG: I mean, there are so many wonders as far as I'm concerned, and if I was more tech savvy than I am, I would be conversant with even more wonders. And it's just not for writing, although that may be your topic of interest in data collection here for teaching, too.	[00:37:50]
gerstler201	DB: Right.
gerstler202	AG: It's unbelievably helpful. [Telephone ringing.] I mean, it's just changed teaching completely, with PowerPoint, email as a way of distributing class materials or communicating with students, and blah, blah, blah. And in terms of writing, every time there would be-the smallness of this, the portability of this, its different capabilities, visual stuff, being able to put visuals, being able to have access to all these typefaces. I mean, it just looks better and better. Now, it's wireless. I don't have to plug everything in to... I mean, to me, the blessings and the bounty are just-for me, I'm not sensing that there's a loss. It's like there might be a downside in terms of polluting the world with what these things are made out of-that they're not recyclable, things like that. And that is a Bad Thing, capital B, capital T. But in terms of making it easier to store, send, revise, read, research, communicate-you know, what's not to like, in my view?
gerstler203	DB: And your poems have such a large, imaginative scope. And I'm wondering, was there a time like when you were first using computers, you know, not so much the internet-how were you generating all those ideas and material at that point?	[00:40:09]
gerstler204	AG: Dude, libraries!
gerstler205	DB: Libraries, alright!
gerstler206	AG: Libraries, libraries, libraries, and you know, old used book stores, weird old books that I would look at, or magazines. Stuff like that.
gerstler207	DB: And as the internet became more sort of part of one's daily life, did that change?
gerstler208	AG: Yes, I still use libraries, and I still haunt the remaining dusty, old, funky, used bookstores. But even with libraries now, if I'm looking for something specific, I can look online. It just saves time. You know, I don't have to trudge around to all the local libraries looking to see if they have any books on Marie Curie, or if they have a particular title by so-and-so. I can see if it's in the library. I can find out what the library hours are. I can talk to a librarian if I need to.
gerstler209	DB: How do you go from, you know, browsing serendipitously to like having a draft of a poem? What's the process there?
gerstler210	AG: Well, I get ideas for poems, and sometimes they're phrases or sort of topics, or weird feelings, or vocabularies, or I want to write a poem based on the initial sort of generative impulses-"Oh, this has to do with hurricanes and my mother-in-law." You know what I mean? Or something like that. And I love research. Research is, to me, such a rich, poetic, amazing exploration, and is full of the unexpected. Like-this is another thing that relates to sort of digital stuff, at least in my mind-one of the only things I miss about pre-digital is card catalogs, because, thumbing through a card catalog, I would be taken on many more weird tributaries than I get doing a computer search in a library on whatever. You know, I'd be looking up the history of ferns or something, and I'd come across the history of shock treatment, and I'd be like, "Oh, that's way more interesting than ferns. What do we got here?" And then go find that book or something. So, that I kind of regret, the way computer indexes are set up. It's actually a little harder to find things, I think, on topic. But anyway-I'm talking about going off on tangents and research, and I just went off on a tangent.	[00:41:52]
gerstler211	DB: No, that's fine. I guess one question I have is, you know, I mean, research for a poem seems like it would be different from research for, like, a journalism piece.
gerstler212	AG: It is. It's imaginative research, in a way. And I think the research is done differently and also has different objectives, so you kind of pursue it differently, and you sort of glean different things from it. In researching, like for journalism, you're usually looking for facts and sources, and different kinds of information, and where different kinds of information are, or what the scope of an issue is or the subject is. In poems, it's sometimes really vocabulary, like a certain diction, or bits of color in a kind of structure. And sometimes it's facts that are going to get bent or distorted, or rubbed up against another set of facts, or data, or vocabularies, or made-up stuff. If that makes sense.	[00:44:06]
gerstler213	DB: No, it does. It makes a lot of sense. And so, I guess, in comparison, then, would you say that, like for your research-your journalism research-do the computers really sort of aid that? Because it has some more specificity, I guess. But you're saying you miss the sort of broader research.
gerstler214	AG: For poetic and literary kind of research, I definitely miss the kind of strolling through the card catalog and all the different little blooming subjects that you would come across. Although, occasionally, in doing any kind of research-even a very sort of scholarly or fact-based project-you would come across something useful but that wasn't something you were looking for specifically, something that you didn't know was going to be there. Whereas that would be serendipitous in a kind of journalistic- or factual-type research, and it would be totally the point in more poetic or literary research may be.
gerstler215	DB: That's interesting to think about.
gerstler216	AG: Although they both partake, I think, of each other. Like sometimes, in doing sort of "poetic" research, if you're really just like, "Yeah, but I need to know five things that bears actually eat for this poem so I can pick one that sounds good," you can find that.
gerstler217	DB: Yeah. So, the sort of final question about this sort of early, generative stage-is there any way that you're working now that is new, that is not different than the way you worked in the past? All this sort of ease of printing and revising, or just sort of generating-the internet, and everything kind of being with you at all times-has that changed your ways of making poems, or-?	[00:47:00]
gerstler218	AG: Absolutely! It absolutely has. I mean, I go to the library less because there's so many things I can access online, and I can print them out at home, or parts of them. I can, depending on what their security and parameters are like, I can sometimes lift a phrase I want to use out of a website and put it right in to the poem, which is very convenient. And then tinker with it, or whatever. Yeah, there's so many things. I can grab images. I can look at images. If I'm like, "Ah, I wanted to describe a crow's foot, but what does a crow's foot look like?" I can look at an image of a-yeah. And then if I do that, if I'm Googling that or looking at that, it'll also come up like, "Oh, yeah. Crow's foot also means, you know, the lines around your eyes," and then it'll show me images of that. I mean, that'll send me somewhere in the poem.
gerstler219	DB: So, there's a type of serendipity in that, I guess, a little bit, too.	[00:48:22]
gerstler220	AG: Sure.
gerstler221	DB: Yeah, sort of pun.
gerstler222	AG: But, I mean, in poems, as you well know. The pun is often a welcome fellow. At least in my world.
gerstler223	DB: Yeah, absolutely. I guess I'm sort of interested, personally, in that middle period, like the period, let's say, before Google. Let's say like late 90s. I mean, like, do you remember like what the computer use was like then? I mean, do you feel like it was like a limited kind of expression of itself for you, or you were still using the library and primarily using it more as a composition tool?
gerstler224	AG: It felt kind of a transitional time-like, using both, getting comfortable with email. Because also, doing journalism, that was a big thing-like turning things in that way.
gerstler225	DB: Yeah, so that must have changed. Yeah, that's got to be a big change.
gerstler226	AG: Big, big difference.
gerstler227	DB: Yeah.
gerstler228	AG: And doing edits that way.
gerstler229	DB: Oh, yeah, like going back and forth so you didn't have to-much quicker
gerstler230	AG: Yeah, like almost the whole time that I worked at Art Forum, it was like-well, at the beginning-it was like over the phone, you know, "Blah, blah, blah." And then it would be like somebody would mark something up and send it to you over email, and then you'd go argue with them over the phone. But you wouldn't be sitting there over the phone going, "OK, in paragraph 3, about the middle, this sentence, this word"-you know what I mean? Again-making things much more efficient, speeding things up. And also, it was a lot about-for me, but I don't think I was alone in this-a lot about learning curve. Figuring out how to use the computer, and what you could do with it graphically, also, with poems. Because suddenly, you know, on a typewriter and on the early computers, you couldn't play with typeface, you couldn't play with type size. People who wanted to make concrete poetry or poetry that uses, you know-they really worked hard. You know, all those guys back in the day they worked hard to get that written and then made sure that it went in to print as the artistic, graphic, on-the-page creation that they wanted to make.
gerstler231	DB: I know. They would've loved the internet. They would've loved having these capabilities so much.	[00:51:25]
gerstler232	AG: I'd like to think of those guys like Apollinaire. They'd be like, "Oh, why wasn't I born!"
gerstler233	DB: I know. I think Marjorie Perloff said something about that, I think. Like why were you-you know? I think everybody was there, and I mean, it hasn't come back. I feel like that ability hasn't, in some ways-I mean, this is side-talk, but. It hasn't expressed itself in ways that-I mean, there's definitely "viz-po" and a lot of interesting stuff, but it hasn't gone to where-there's no movements, or anything, I think, that I can find.
gerstler234	AG: I mean, there's some sort of graphically-there's all that, you know, word-cloud, you know, Wordle, where you can input things. And then there's also people who are, a lot, using different internet or research functions as kind of theme, or structure, or kind of concept. Like kind of conceptual poetry.
gerstler235	DB: Like Flarf.
gerstler236	AG: Yes, and all its sort of grandchildren.
gerstler237	DB: Yeah, right. Absolutely. I know, and those are definitely fascinating. You mentioned the typeface and using that. I mean, did that influence your work?
gerstler238	AG: Well, a little, because I liked to do, you know, what sometimes gets called, you know, "multi-vocal" stuff. And I have a weird fondness for italics. I always have. You can indicate different speakers, different voices, different-you know? I didn't used to be able to use italics, make things bold, make things bigger. You know, make different columns.
gerstler239	DB: Yeah, absolutely.
gerstler240	AG: Suddenly you have-
gerstler241	DB: Magical powers.
gerstler242	AG: Yes, exactly!
gerstler243	DB: Did you ever have those sort of inclinations when you were working with typewriters or in the early days of computers? Were you like kind of, "Oh, I'd really like this to look like that"?
gerstler244	AG: A little bit, yeah. Mostly because I wanted to use italics. I mean, I'm not one of those people who are like, "Yes, I want it all over the page. I like it, you know, coming down like rain. I want to look like an explosion of letters here." I'm not super in to that, but there were small things I wanted to do. And now, you know, not only can you do them, but you can try ten different typefaces or sizes, or you can make it a color.
gerstler245	DB: Right. What part of the process, for you-I mean, what sort of, in the progression, what sort of using the different types of typefaces, or playing around happens? Does it happen more in the early stages, or like are you-maybe in a later revision stage-are you like, "Maybe if I move this here..."-?	[00:54:07]
gerstler246	AG: Mostly later, because need for that-the poem's alleged need for that-kind of evolves as the poem evolves. I don't often start by saying, "Well, this is going to be about someone who has Alzheimer's. So there's her voice, and here's the voice of the doctor, and then here's the voice of the daughters." It's like, "So, I'm going to need at least three different typefaces," or "going to need to spatially differentiated," or blah, blah, blah. But that might evolve as I'm writing the poem.
gerstler247	DB: Right. So now we move on to, kind of specifically, revision. When you were first starting to write, what were your sort of typical revision practices, just like nitty-gritty? Like how did it work? It sounds like you moved from notebook, usually, to a typewritten thing, made some changes, and then every sort of stage was another typed out piece?	[00:55:05]
gerstler248	AG: Kind of. And I actually-this is making me remember things-I did a lot of cutting with scissors and taping together with scotch tape. I did more and more and more of that. So, you can't believe how happy I was. And, you know, you'd lose pieces, or the wind would blow them, or the dog would eat them. You know what I mean? And then if you tried to Xerox something like that, they would have these big, gross lines, and it would just look like, "Yay! We're in kindergarten!"
gerstler249	DB: The original cut and paste, really.
gerstler250	AG: Cut-and-paste is called that for a reason! So, I just couldn't have been happier-and I'm pretty clumsy anyway, I'm not a good visual artist that way-to not have to spend the time, to not have to look for the scissors, to not be screwing around with tape and glue, and to be able to flip it back if it didn't look good that way and try it another way, make three versions and look. I'm into it, deeply.
gerstler251	DB: So then, in terms of your revision, the sort of the cut and paste, the copy and paste, the rearranging, has always been, though, pretty fundamental to your practice.	[00:56:49]
gerstler252	AG: Once I started to realize that-as the late, great David Foster Wallace said, and as many other people have said-that writing is revision, all the way through. Yeah-for me it is. Things change a lot. I often, you know, first start working on something-not that I ever know what I'm doing, but it's really groping and trying things, and additive. And then you get to parts of revision that are more subtractive. And then you kind of go back and forth, and then you get to a certain point where you go, "Oh, now it actually seems like it's turning in to something, so what are the new sort of requirements one needs for this new path that it's taking?"
gerstler253	DB: So, would you say, between those sort of those types of revision-you would say, additive, subtractive and maybe substitutive-do you have a primary-
gerstler254	AG: And research, definitely-pulling things, other elements, once it starts to take shape. You know, like, "Oh, this isn't about autopsies. It's about, you know, my feet. My feet, dead or alive." Suddenly then, it's like, "Oh, OK." Then I'm suddenly looking at podiatrist magazines.
gerstler255	DB: OK. Is there a primary mode you go to? Or it seems like you use-it seems like it's all over the place.
gerstler256	AG: All over the place.
gerstler257	DB: OK.
gerstler258	AG: My problem in life.
gerstler259	DB: And then, I guess, when did this kind of writing-this revision realization-start to really influence your own practice? Was it from the beginning, or did it sort of hit at some point?
gerstler260	AG: When I was, you know, a kid and when I was in junior high and high school, I was, you know, laboring under the misapprehension-which is a common one-that, you know, "Oh, I wrote something. How sacred. How lovely. How wonderful." You know, "Ah! You mustn't touch it! It's just kind of like a shrine." But this is not the case, at least not with me. So, once I got in to college, I realized, "Oh, you know, you work on this stuff and you think about it, and maybe you show it to people who you think are smart or interested in the topic, and they might have a suggestion. Or you work on it and then you read some more and you see oh, look at what that person did. This could solve my problem here." And that it's just layers and layers and layers and layers-getting to what the thing might be and then trying to work on the thing and make it into something that could work. That it's all just-writing is revision, because you're constantly making decisions. You know, sort of like perception is revision, and filtering, and choices, and-	[00:59:00]
gerstler261	DB: That's a good analogy. I like that.
gerstler262	AG: It's a mess, and you're nuts, and you can't attend to everything. And also, as you get older, I think you realize that every poem doesn't have to contain every single thought, feeling, and reaction you've ever had in your life. That, actually, you can get to the universal through the specific. Maybe. If you're lucky.
gerstler263	DB: Do you-I mean, like, so when you go to a piece to revise it, do you have any intentions in mind?	[01:00:49]
gerstler264	AG: Sure. Sometimes some of them survive the process, and sometimes some of them are, you know, things that end up leading to other things, but end up getting discarded. And sometimes some of them are red herrings, and the thing doesn't end up going anywhere. So, it either goes in the trash, or one line for me gets cannibalized out and goes to something else, and the rest of it goes in the trash.
gerstler265	DB: In terms of kind of what drives your revisions, is it like sound, or structure, or meaning, or is it sort of like a combination?
gerstler266	AG: Hopefully. I hope and pray that it's all of those things. Some people have a good head. You talked to Michael Ryan. He has such a good head for all those things. For the kind of emotional content for form, for sound and music and beat. All of that. I'm not so wonderful. Sometimes a period of revision will be like, "This is just about trying to dig out the idea," and then after it feels like some of that maybe coming out, then sometimes I will have to be like, "OK-you really have to be hearing this now and work on the sound because-"
gerstler267	DB: So, it kind of goes instead-it's sort of like compartmentalized, sometimes?
gerstler268	AG: Yeah. And then, hopefully, once it really gets going, you're able to kind of see, smell, hear, feel, taste what's going on. Or sometimes it'll be like, you work on something for quite a while, and you'll be like, "You know, it might help shape this for it to be in quatrains." Or, "Is this really a prose poem?"
gerstler269	DB: Yeah. That's always an interesting question.
gerstler270	AG: Right. Or, "Since this is about a couple who hates each other, how about couplets?"
gerstler271	DB: Did you learn how to improvise, or did someone else teach you?	[01:03:16]
gerstler272	AG: Dennis Cooper taught me a lot, and being in some workshops. I mean, that's one of the things that workshops supposed to teach you. I mean, one of the things workshops usually teaches you is how to survive workshops, and how to be in them. But I think things that have taught me about revision are showing work to other people, being in workshops, reading, reading literature, and also sometimes reading craft stuff. And going to lectures, talking to people. And I feel like I learn a lot from teaching. That's one of the real, unbelievable benefits of teaching. I learn a lot from reading students work. I learn a lot from being in workshop with them, seeing how they do it-just being a part of it. Seeing what they're reading. Incredibly helpful. And then I've had a few, you know-Dennis Cooper was an unbelievable mentor. And some other teachers I've had were, you know-when you have a writing teacher usually that, when you get down to it, they can help you learn about your strengths. They can help you work on your process and maybe be less scared. And maybe they can help you figure out how to navigate the literary world and what kinds of writers and stuff you might like-open up stuff like that for you. But I think what maybe they most help you with, often, is revision. Like, Dennis Cooper was such a great mentor to me that I can still sometimes hear him in my head.	[01:03:29]
gerstler273	DB: Do you? I mean, like, what do you hear?
gerstler274	AG: You know, "Why are you using this word? That's not tight enough." Just things that he would say. One time he said to me-and lots of people have said this other ways, I'm sure-but he was like, "You have to cultivate your obsessions." And I was always a little ashamed of my obsessions. But he was the opposite. His obsessions were like, "Art is our religion!" And he wasn't, like, preaching. He just kind of calmly, quietly said it was what he thought. But these were new ideas to me, and rocked my world in a big way. I was like, "Oh, I'm obsessed with drowning. I could like-instead of thinking that I should just go to the doctor-I can actually read things about it, and write things about it, and pursue it." Or, "I'm obsessed with, like, ancient Egyptian tombs," or something. You know what I mean?	[01:05:22]
gerstler275	DB: Yeah. No, it's kind of a freedom, right?
gerstler276	AG: Freedom and-I hate this word, but-a permission. Like, "No, that's what artists do."
gerstler277	DB: Right. Well, you don't know until-
gerstler278	AG: Well, no. Well, some people seem to know it instinctually. Some people really do. And there are other, more timid ones of us that need somebody to kind of light a fire under them. And he kind of did that, and a few other people did that for me.
gerstler279	DB: Throughout your writing, have other people played roles? Like, I mean, he seems to have played a role in teaching you how to revise. Have other people played kind of more specific roles in the revision process for you?	[01:06:53]
gerstler280	AG: Well, I mean, I didn't study writing, unfortunately. You know, I was a Psych major- undergrad. And then when I was much older, I went in to a low-residency writing program in non-fiction. And all the teachers I had there were really great at, you know, taking your copy and going over it, and showing you, "Ah, this is-you're avoiding something here," or, you know, "This is-." Because it wasn't always just like "out, out, out, out." It would be like, "I want to know more about this," or, "I'm so curious about this," or, you know, under currents-things that haven't been mined out of it yet. Or that because it's you-and you're kind of, you know, deep sea fishing in your unconscious-subconscious in a way-that you might need another person to either say, "This is excessive," or, "This isn't the most interesting thing," or "You think this is about, you know, Abraham Lincoln, but it's really about you wanting to have a baby. So, get real to yourself!" You know what I mean?
gerstler281	DB: Yeah.
gerstler282	AG: And sometimes people are wrong, but sometimes you're like, "Oh, god. That. Uh-oh, you're right."
gerstler283	DB: Yeah. And do you have those relationships now with your poetry, or-?
gerstler284	AG: I try to do it for myself, and there are people I show things to now and again. But, you know-and I don't want to sound like Grandma Moses or anything, but-I think, for me, it seems like it gets a little harder when you get older, because everyone is so busy. And, you know, I can't ask my students to look at my work, because it's supposed to be going the other way around. Although I'd like to, but-I mean, a lot of them, or most of them, are really kind of smart and brilliant and, you know. It would be great, but that is not fair.
gerstler285	DB: That could maybe be something different in workshop, though.
gerstler286	AG: Yeah, "It's all about me today!" You know. So, I have a few people I try not to tap very often, and much later in the process. And I try really hard to do it myself, and to come back to things multiple times from multiple angles. Because, you know, when you're younger, you have a lot more friends, and you're all young, and you have a little bit more time, and maybe people aren't locked in to jobs or families, and you're all artists and writers together coming up. And then there's some winnowing. At least this has been my experience-probably other people have a different experience-but some people stop doing it and do something else. Which is cool. Some people get very busy, or you lose touch with them. And then a lot of people have jobs and lives that-you know, they're already reading their students work, and trying to make a living, and trying to keep their life together, and do their own work. So, you know, you're like, "Hey, here's sixty pages of my poem on top of your busy, multi-tasking life. Have fun!"
gerstler287	DB: Enjoy!
gerstler288	AG: And try to get back to me within the next two days!
gerstler289	DB: Right, right.
gerstler290	AG: It's harder.
gerstler291	DB: Right, right. No, that's definitely one of the things. And then, I guess, in terms of when you do get to the part of the process where you're putting together a book-well, this is kind of the third stage, I guess. I mean, how do you go about-I mean, I guess, there's the revision process there, too-putting the collections together? What are your sort of drives, intentions, and has that changed over the course of your career, too?	[01:10:52]
gerstler292	AG: Well, it's different with different books.
gerstler293	DB: OK.
gerstler294	AG: Because they're different animals, right?
gerstler295	DB: Right, yeah.
gerstler296	AG: More or less. For me, if it's a book of poems, some books of poems are sort of like a scrapbook, or a portfolio, or something, and some of them are more thematic, or the book itself has some kind of looser type-in my case, it's usually loose-structure, or trajectory. And even the ones that are kind of a sampler, I spend a fair amount of time trying to figure out, "What's the first poem? What's the last poem? What's the movement? How do they work together? How do some of the last lines of ones feed in to the title or the first line of the next one? What looks good next?" In a way, it's sort of like, though it's not exactly like, interior decoration-you want it to flow, have ups and downs. With me, it's like, "What's the mixture of dark and funny ones?" I mean, you do mini version of that when you're reading, even. And then sometimes it's like, "Oh, this is going to be in sections," and, "Are these sections going to be numbered?" It's basically manuscript construction, right? And if you're dealing with-I mean, I've been really lucky in being able to pick a verse because, you know, it's a funny thing with poems. It's like hardly anybody publishes poems anymore, and if you're lucky enough to get a book of poems published, usually they're not treating it like it's, you know the next big best-seller. They don't have a big investment in it. So, the fact that it's much less a big deal to them has its pros and its cons, but one of the pros is, usually, they're not going to impose a cover on me, because it's not like, "Well, this is going to be a blockbuster, and therefore, we need to have this kind of cover." So, I get to pick covers by artists that I like usually. So, thinking about that, and how the title-the overall title of the book-where that's going to come from.
gerstler297	DB: Yeah. Getting back to kind of the computer thing-how did you learn, like without the computer, and then did it change once you got-?	[01:13:56]
gerstler298	AG: Well, this is where I need to be more... This is one of many places where I would love to be more tech savvy, because I keep asking friends of mine who are graphic artists, like, "Isn't there a program, or piece of software, where you can layout a book? Like, in a grid?" Because I end up spreading the book out like on the floor, and then putting it together, paging through it, you know? Because, like with what we're talking about at the beginning, I want to be looking at it in a way that's analogous to the final product. But it would be very convenient if I could look at something that showed where each page was and what are the double-page spreads were etcetera. And I haven't found something that works like that, so I'm sitting here getting dog hair all over the pages, and either putting it on the floor or trying to do it on a long table. Things like that.
gerstler299	DB: And is that how you've been doing it for the whole time? So, this has made it easier to move things around and stuff within the document, but in terms of constructing the document, you're still on the floor?	[01:15:09]
gerstler300	AG: In the dark ages with, you know, lint and dog hair and crumbs. But I'm sure at this point there are multiple programs-there must be-that if I knew how to use them, I could pull the thing together and look at it on a grid, or two grids-something like that. Or scan things in.
gerstler301	DB: You would think Word could just do that. I'm sure it's not that difficult, but they don't do a whole lot.
gerstler302	AG: Yeah. I've not found something that's easy to use, and cheap and available to me that I know of where I can just do that.
gerstler303	DB: Right. I think, yeah-I think most people use InDesign, but that's a $200, $300 program, and it takes learning. It's a learning curve.
gerstler304	AG: Yeah, and I'm always like, "Oh, I could be writing instead of reading this piece of software that I'm only going to use once every three years, when I'm like about to have a book come out. But I should still do it.
gerstler305	DB: I don't know. I mean, it seems to work for you. So, I guess in the process of making this, how do you track the pieces? Do you just keep them in this-you print them out and you put them in these sort of folders? Is that how it's been consistently done?	[01:16:23]
gerstler306	AG: I do that, and I have a folder of things that I'm currently working on, and I keep sort of looking at that and seeing if I'm reaching critical mass. And then there's ones that are sort of sink to the bottom that I know I'm not going to use unless I get some revelation and I can really clean them up, or if there are others that are contenders.
gerstler307	DB: OK. So, when you're all done with this, like, you're done with the manuscript and stuff, what are your sort of archival-the physical and digital-practices there? I mean, do you put that in a certain box, and put that somewhere?	[01:16:58]
gerstler308	AG: Well, I make the folder that is the book that I'm going to submit, to see if I can get it published. And in order to have arrived at that, I've printed things out and done my gungy little no-tech, on-the-floor, dogs-walking-over-it, leaves-falling-on-it kind of procedure that I was shame-facedly describing to you moments ago. And so, I end up with a paper copy in a file, at least one. And also at that point, I'm usually trying to bribe a couple of friends in to reading it before I send it off. So, I'm either emailing them, or handing them a copy. I've got a copy. There's a copy of the computer, there's a copy in whatever virtual world my back-up system backs it up into, and eventually there's a copy that's submitted to the publisher.
gerstler309	DB: And then so, say like a few years on, do you still have like those archival copies somewhere on your computer of those manuscripts?	[01:18:29]
gerstler310	AG: You know, I mean, now I will because the way I used to back-up was just on an external-
gerstler311	DB: External hard drive?
gerstler312	AG: Yeah, just plugged-in. But I have problems with those, and also that if the house burned down, that would burn down, too. But now, with things being backed in to clouds or other people's systems or stuff like that, it's just going to exist there. But when I have a book come out, I just think, "OK, that's it-the book came out."
gerstler313	DB: The book is the thing.
gerstler314	AG: The book is the thing. And then in the floating galaxy of Carbonite, there's also a copy of it, and that's sort of enough.
gerstler315	DB: Right. So I mean, do you have like a different feeling, say about like the printed out manuscript that you worked on, and like the document file on the thing? I mean, does this one feel more dear to you?	[01:19:20]
gerstler316	AG: I'm not precious about that sort of stuff. People yell at me every once in a while, like, "What? You don't keep your draft?" or, "You don't keep copies?" or, "You don't-?" And I'm like, "My office is this big. I get rid of things so that I have, you know-two writers live in this house, and books are coming in like every moment. It's just a constant battle with the rising swell of, you know, paper avalanches. So, no, I don't keep a lot of the stuff like that, because I'd have room for-
gerstler317	DB: New stuff?
gerstler318	AG: Yeah.
gerstler319	DB: Yeah. OK. So, I have some sort of some general questions about computers, and I'd like to talk a little bit about correspondence and teaching, and that's it. And these maybe a little repetitive, but I think we can get at them really quickly. So, do you think then that with the kind of advent of personal computing, did it affect greatly your writing practices, or your writing style?	[01:20:18]
gerstler320	AG: Writing practices, for sure. And I think productivity.
gerstler321	DB: And productivity? OK. In terms of style though, do you think that there were definite changes?
gerstler322	AG: Well, it certainly aided and abetted my tendencies towards research, and it quickened and made more efficient, and broadened the range of my research reach, if that makes sense.
gerstler323	DB: Yeah. No, it does. Are there any sort of styles, techniques, or formats that you think you lost from moving to the computers?	[01:21:20]
gerstler324	AG: Not for me, man. I just gained time, because you just had to retype everything.
gerstler325	DB: I think we've covered a lot of these. I mean, one of the questions is-does the internet play a role in practices?
gerstler326	AG: Yeah.
gerstler327	DB: I'm pretty sure it does. Do you ever disconnect when you're working? Is it ever too much of a distraction for you?
gerstler328	AG: You know, that's not-the thing I do is I just close email.
gerstler329	DB: Oh, OK. So, email is the kind of-?
gerstler330	AG: You know, the way this computer-you know, the way things are set up, it's like, if you're doing any task on the computer, whether it's for school, or if you're working on a poem, or if you're doing research, or whatever, you know, the email thing is like-I always have the sound turned-off. My tech friend makes fun of me, but I'm very weird, and I don't like the noises the computer makes. I find them distracting. But even if you turn off the sound, there's a little box that comes up that not only tells you that you have email, but is like, you know, "The medical quadrant at the University of California-Irvine wants to know if you want to participate in the study of people who have bad skin diseases." You know, this is like flashing in the corner of the thing every-not like I'm so popular or anything, half of it's spam. But still, that is interruptive and distracting, and so, I just turn email off. But I know, for me, I like to do research-and even my use of a dictionary, or use of a thesaurus, or use of a synonym dictionary-all those things are on the internet. So I don't have to, like, go in another room, then run and come back. I can just work with the internet on and the email off.
gerstler331	DB: Right. OK, I'm just going to-usually, this is what happens when you cover most of the things. I just want to catch a few more things. Well, we sort of talked about this really briefly, but are you able to find the files that you're looking for on your computer, like if you're thinking about something?	[01:23:40]
gerstler332	AG: Usually. Not only because of the naming and the capacity to easily update or change names as much as you want, but also sometimes I can't find a file, but I remember I used the word "artichoke" in that poem. So, you can search for that. Like I'll think, "Oh, OK. Well, god damn it, I can't remember what I named the thing!" I changed the name five times, but then I'll think, "Well, I used the word 'toothache' in there, so, I can search for that."
gerstler333	DB: So, you're trying to look for "toothache"-like, before those capabilities were available like in the 90s, etcetera, were you more specific about your titling? I mean, were there other things that you did then that-?	[01:24:34]
gerstler334	AG: It still, occasionally, takes me a while to find some things. But mostly, between those two things, I can. And before-I have more stuff on my computer now, I think. Back when it was just titling and I couldn't search for a specific terms or names, there were less things on my computer.
gerstler335	DB: It was mostly for writing, yeah. How do you kind of feel about the security and fixity of your files? Do you worry about them, or do you feel pretty confident in your situation? You've said you had some issues before, so I'm assuming that's really kind of influenced your practice.	[01:25:15]
gerstler336	AG: Well, if you mean security of the computer in general, I think everyone is pretty freaked out about that. I don't get scared about people stealing my little poems. Because I don't think anyone cares. But in terms of invading my bank account or my personal information or my passwords, or other computer things-you know, contemporary life is a nightmare of losing privacy and being surveilled. The computer is a major source of that. So, I'm just as scared as anyone else.
gerstler337	DB: Yeah. I guess, I'm sort of thinking more mundanely about if you are just worried that your documents will all sort of-you know, Carbonite drops and we lose them. I mean, like, is that something, or do you feel pretty secure at this point? And were there different stages in the writing that you were like much more careful about them than you are now?
gerstler338	AG: Now that you've said, "Oh, Carbonite drops," maybe I'll get another one, too.
gerstler339	DB: No, no-I mean, they're got several different servers.
gerstler340	AG: I mean-I think between my printing stuff out, my computer, my multiple devices, and Carbonite-
gerstler341	DB: No, you're really well set up! As a digital archivist, I can tell you that.
gerstler342	AG: OK, happy to hear. I'm probably more or less OK, and if I'm not OK-
gerstler343	DB: No one's OK.
gerstler344	AG: Yeah-the meteor comes and we're a firing inferno of a planet. Well-nothing I can do about it.
gerstler345	DB: Yeah. But you came to this practice because of-
gerstler346	AG: Bad experiences.
gerstler347	DB: Bad experiences.
gerstler348	AG: Both my own and hearing about other people's.
gerstler349	DB: Yeah. So, I guess, in terms of sort of corresponding with other writers about your writing, did you do a lot of that by like typewriting in paper in the beginning? And then how does that sort of changed over the course? Utterly different?	[01:27:13]
gerstler350	AG: I mean, I had a postal scale. You know, everything was like weighing stuff, going to the post office, and stamps, and, you know, printing. You know, which was fine, but now, I mean-email is a dream. The only thing that bugs me about-well, there're two things. One is security, and the other is that it's not as reliable. You know, I always think that the next technology is flawless, you know? It's god, it's perfect. But yesterday-it turns out that my server seems to have a problem with Gmail, and will not send. You know, 2/3 of people I know or do business with have Gmail, and so now, "Oh, 10% of things I send to Gmail are not getting there? How fantastic! That's really great!"
gerstler351	DB: Oh, yeah. I know.
gerstler352	AG: So, what's that? But, no, email's, I think, great for writers, for correspondence, for sending people-I mean, going back and forth with revisions. All that.
gerstler353	DB: And do you feel like there's a difference in feel between the ways of communicating, I mean, sort of regular mail versus email?	[01:28:47]
gerstler354	AG: Well, these are all mediums, right? I mean, yeah, they're mediums, or technologies, or both, and they have their own characteristics. It's not the same as a genre, but no, they require different things of us as producers and consumers, and they have different effects. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would argue with that. So yeah, email has many of the same characteristics but is different from a written letter. And a letter written on a manual typewriter is different from, you know, Charles Dickens dipping his pen, if that's indeed what he did. You know.
gerstler355	DB: I'm sure he did. Yeah. So, are there ways in which you save certain digital correspondence?	[01:29:52]
gerstler356	AG: Oh, yeah. Some emails I print out, and many I save by leaving them on the computer. And again, since the gods of Carbonites are supposedly looking out for me, it's saved there, too.
gerstler357	DB: But you do do specific things to save specific correspondence sometimes?
gerstler358	AG: Yes.
gerstler359	DB: And the with the physical correspondence-do you save specific things there, too?
gerstler360	AG: Sure. Once-not bragging-but once, I got a little letter from John Ashbury, a tiny one about something, and bet your bottom dollar I saved that.
gerstler361	DB: Yeah.	[01:30:49]
gerstler362	AG: Or, once I wrote a review of a biography of Frank O'Hara, and his brother like wrote me something, you know, a little card thing. I totally save things like that. Because they're meaningful, not because I think I'm going to sell them on EBay or something.
gerstler363	DB: Right, no, absolutely. So, as computers came in to your work life and into your teaching, did this-I mean, I know that changed dramatically. What do you feel are like the differences between, you know, having the sort of immediate access that we have now versus where you were, before, corresponding more with mailboxes than in person?	[01:31:17]
gerstler364	AG: For teaching?
gerstler365	DB: For teaching, yeah.
gerstler366	AG: Gosh, I'm not-I mean, I want to take classes and be able to take better advantage of this, but I mean, I have taken to bringing an iPad to class. Because, like we were looking at a-I think it was a Frank O'Hara poem-and it brought up Betty Grable. None of the undergraduates in class, understandably, who Betty Grable was. So, I was able to go dit-dit-dit: here's Betty Grable. You know? Pin-up girl. Here's who she was and here's some biographical information. Or we can look up a word, because there are not books in the classroom. In the old days, I used to sometimes bring a dictionary to class. And I was like, "I can't carry all this stuff!"
gerstler367	DB: So, it's always been important to you, though, to give kind of outside-context in your teaching?	[01:32:28]
gerstler368	AG: I'm teaching writing, and books, and literature, and English. We need to be able to look stuff up. I mean, you know, that's kind of a given. So, the fact that we can have a dictionary, or people can be arguing about whether, you know, negative capability was something that Keats thought of, or Britney Spears. I can now look it up and say, "Hey."
gerstler369	DB: So, is this the first year you brought the iPad in to the class?
gerstler370	AG: No, I started doing that a few years ago. Or somebody's written a poem based on a painting and-
gerstler371	DB: Yeah, you can look up the painting.
gerstler372	AG: Things like this are really good. And if I was more tech savvy, when I'm lucky enough to be booked in a smart classroom, I could actually project that stuff or material. I want to get to that point where I can do PowerPoint things, or I can project the poem. You know what I mean? Different things like that.
gerstler373	DB: Absolutely, yeah.
gerstler374	AG: So, every aspect of teaching the kinds of things that I teach, you know?
gerstler375	DB: And I guess, you know, this entrance of-
gerstler376	AG: You know, workshop-You know? Everyone sends their poem-
gerstler377	DB: Yeah, by email. I think when I was there, we still had to go drop it in the mailbox.
gerstler378	AG: Right.
gerstler379	DB: Has the entrance of this into the classroom had an effect on your own writing at all?
gerstler380	AG: Entrance of something in the classroom-?
gerstler381	DB: You know, I mean, like all of a sudden you have a device small enough that you can bring in and use in a very powerful way whereas before, it would have been, you know, huffing in that. Like has that affected you, I mean, in your relationships with your students and then your writing? Sort of a bad question, but-
gerstler382	AG: Well, you know, you want the classroom to be a vivid, lively, energetic, productive place. And when I was a little kid, there was a lot of stuff in the classroom. And now, there isn't. The classroom is sort of like a white cube, in a way. So actually, digital stuff, to me, substitutes for, or contains, the idea of having a lot of books, or a lot of pictures, a lot of reference things. In the classroom again, which is really actually important to make something. It's not exactly hands-on in the way that a Chemistry class would be, if you're working with beakers and petri dishes and stuff like that, but it helps connect the things that you're talking about in classroom to the concrete via the digital, I think. And make it real, and make it vivid, and make it connected, and for you to be able to follow ideas and reach out to the connected ideas and see where things are coming from.	[01:34:39]
gerstler383	DB: And then, I guess in line with that then, do you feel like the students you have now have a different, maybe cultural technical understanding than they used to?	[01:36:23]
gerstler384	AG: Completely. No, completely. Every generation of them does, and then I do-I mean, I try to fake it and act like I'm all... I bring my iPad to class, even partly, to be like, "OK-I'm a bunch older than you, but don't write me off. I'm actually-." Yeah, exactly. So, "Don't kick me out of the world quite yet."
gerstler385	DB: Yeah, yeah. Is there anything-I mean, I guess the students you're teaching at this time, in this year, are probably more connected than any students ever, right? But are you seeing like a difference in their proclivities, or anything like that?
gerstler386	AG: No, I mean, this is-they have grown up, you know, completely differently. I mean, when I talk to other teachers, you know-this is "duh," everyone knows this-but one of the only downsides is everybody has a computer or a device. I'm very lucky with where I get to teach and what I get to teach. I'm not usually having this problem, but a lot people are having this problem. You know, people are there shopping for shoes, or looking at watches, or talking to their friends, or looking at porn. You know what I mean? And they're like, "Hey, I'm taking notes." And I'm like, "No, you're not! You're not. You're buying electronic cigarettes while we're supposed to be talking about something else." So, there's that thing about computers in the classroom.	[01:37:08]
gerstler387	DB: So, I mean, like finally-and thank you for your patience in answering all of these-	[01:37:58]
gerstler388	AG: Oh, sure.
gerstler389	DB: And this is kind of the last sort of-do you have like any sort of broad thoughts about how, you know, the advent of personal computer has affected writing in this period of time-in the period of time that is your kind of writing career?
gerstler390	AG: Well, I kind of think everything with this whole conversation is that-and sadly, I'm not a good synthesizer or summer-upper-but my overwhelming reaction is gratitude. I'm super grateful that it makes it so much quicker, easier, more efficient to research, to connect to libraries, to connect to students and other writers, to correspond-to exchange texts-to get hold of texts. You know, Project Gutenberg, blah, blah, blah, blah, libraries online. Everything. And I'm so incredibly grateful that it makes it easier to keep track of and store documents and images, and exchange them, and to work on things. I do not miss screwing around with white out, having a Selectric typewriter that I can't even lift, having to cut, physically, with scissors and Elmer's glue to try to move text around in a poem or a piece of journalism. Don't miss it. Wouldn't want to have to go back there unless it was to save the Earth from being so polluted that we can't live on it anymore. So, I'm grateful. And I find these things exciting. I don't keep up as much as I should mostly because of time, but I feel incredibly fortunate to live now because of that.
gerstler391	DB: Well, thank you very much. Alright, that is it.
gluck1	(Conversation about some of the art around Glück's apartment, and the print she used for the cover of Village Life)
gluck2	DB: If you would state your name and the location we're at for this interview.	0:00:00
gluck3	LG: Louise Glück. Glück is spelled with a ü and an umlaut, and the name is Hungarian. We're in Cambridge, Massachusetts in my apartment.
gluck4	DB: Of course, I know the answers to many of these questions but—what genres do you work in?
gluck5	LG: Poetry. I have written some essays and some forewords to books when I was judging first book prize contests. But in the main, poetry.
gluck6	DB: Are you going to collect those essays?	0:00:45
gluck7	LG: Yeah.
gluck8	DB: Good, those are so excellent. You worked really hard at them, I know.
gluck9	LG: I worked so hard, and they ruined ten summers because it made me frantic with anxiety—the idea of trying to serve a new talent and to describe its uniqueness. And, you know, it's a natural offshoot of teaching, which I've loved for years. I loved everything about judging those contests, and I loved working with the poets on their manuscripts. And in the early days before Yale Press was convinced that this was worthwhile, I used to buy a plane ticket for people so they could come here and spend three days working.
gluck10	DB: Okay.
gluck11	LG: Then I would make very detailed recommendations, which they were free to not take because the book had won. On the other hand, they weren't free to change the books any which way because I could say, "This is not the book I chose." They could stay exactly as they were, or they could respond to suggestions and work further. Many of them actually felt a great need for that kind of work and they just didn't have somebody who was willing to take that kind of detailed daily interest.
gluck12	DB: From what I've experienced, it doesn't seem to be a very common thing for the selector to take a real interest after they choose and then they're done—and they get their money and they're on their way.
gluck13	LG: I think that's sort of how most of them feel and most of them also don't want to read a lot of books. Or in some contests, they're not permitted to. They're sent ten finalists screened by—
gluck14	DB: Who knows?
gluck15	LG: It varies. But if these manuscripts are being screened by people whose aesthetic judgment you question, you don't know what you're getting. So I asked to see as many as possible with the understanding that nothing would be thrown out until a winner was chosen because if I didn't find a winner in a hundred manuscripts, I was going to see the next hundred.
gluck16	DB: Right.
gluck17	LG: And that was all fun because you didn't have to read each book through to completion, and you didn't have to write a little paragraph evaluating it the way you do for other kinds of things. If you didn't love it, it was unlikely you would choose it. You would put it in the "unlikely" pile—and my living room was filled with piles, identifiable by me—and then at the end, I would read through the piles to see whether something got promoted or demoted. Some years were thrilling, I mean, it was too much stuff. In those years, most of the runners up ended up winning.
gluck18	DB: Some other—?
gluck19	LG: Well, later Yale prizes.
gluck20	DB: Oh okay. You would encourage them to resubmit.
gluck21	LG: Yeah. Some people would submit like three and four times.
gluck22	DB: Yeah, that's interesting. I want to know who it is.
gluck23	LG: Well, we would do that when that's off.
gluck24	DB: Okay. So what time of year were you usually doing that evaluation?
gluck25	LG: It worked out very well because a lot of that time, I was just working half time at Yale, not in the spring semester, and I would get the manuscripts in December, right after the semester ended. I tried to give myself a couple of weeks of blank. And then the cartons would start to come from the people who were screening, and Yale allowed the appropriation of a mechanism that I had picked up from Michael Collier when I judged the Bakeless prize that he supervised. He had each poet who was judging choose younger poets to screen. So I chose ten poets and they got paid a pittance, and each of them read a hundred books and sent me ten, and kept ninety. That meant that I had someone to talk to about each of these manuscripts. And sometimes we would talk before they even sent things and they would say, "Well, do you want to see this? I'm on the fence." I had great people screening for me and they were people whose judgments I trusted and who sent me very broadly diverse manuscripts. One thing that I wanted was a series in which the books weren't all alike. And they're not. Anyway, that was great, but it meant that all the prose writing I did for ten years was writing forewords. So I have a stack and a few other essays. It doesn't make as pleasing a collection as the first one but I can't stand the idea that it's just going to go nowhere.
gluck26	DB: No, I would be very excited to have that book.	0:06:54
gluck27	LG: Oh well, good. Do you have an idea for a title? Not three words.
gluck28	DB: Not three words?
gluck29	LG: Not like "Proofs and Theories," "This and That." Not a clone.
gluck30	DB: No.
gluck31	LG: I don't either.
gluck32	DB: If I think of some options.
gluck33	LG: Please, I really need it.
gluck34	DB: Okay.
gluck35	LG: I'll acknowledge you.
gluck36	DB: Is it coming out of FSG?
gluck37	LG: Yeah, but not for awhile.
gluck38	DB: Not for awhile. You've got this next book.
gluck39	LG: Yeah.
gluck40	DB: Okay. Well, that was the first question.
gluck41	LG: That was the first? What was that about? It wasn't about digital anything!
gluck42	DB: No, it was just general. I went to AWP this year which was terrifying.
gluck43	LG: I've never been.
gluck44	DB: Yeah, you should never go.
gluck45	LG: That's sort of what I think.
gluck46	DB: But there was a panel with Richard Siken and—who were the other two?—
gluck47	LG: Arda Collins?
gluck48	DB: Arda Collins and—
gluck49	LG: Fady Joudah?
gluck50	DB: Exactly, and they were talking. I caught the second half, so I heard Siken talking about his working with you on Crush, which was really funny. He's funny. I didn't know how funny he was. The book is pretty intense but—
gluck51	LG: Right. And he's a great visual artist.
gluck52	DB: Oh yeah? Oh! I like that.	0:08:19
gluck53	LG: I think he's amazing.
gluck54	DB: Yeah.
gluck55	LG: He made these envelopes because he thought he was going to be living in Europe, and so he made—that one's wonderful—all of these things. And, you know, the message was the envelope. I don't know how you can frame them.
gluck56	DB: Yeah, who knows? They're very nice.
gluck57	LG: Aren't they wonderful?
gluck58	DB: Yeah. He has another book coming out too.
gluck59	LG: Yeah, he does, which I saw a long time ago. And Peter Streckfus has a new book, and it's wonderful.
gluck60	DB: I really love his first book.
gluck61	LG: I love that book. I love that book and I just think he's an amazement. And Jay Hopler has a new book that he's peddling. Those first three I worked with really closely on the first books, and with Peter and Jay, I worked a lot on the second, too. With Richard, much less. I mean, it's funny because he needed a lot of editing. His poems were way too long, and his stanzas were too long. The lines were too long. But you had to preserve that avalanche sense—that headlong sense—and so it was very hard to figure out. But once he saw a way of approaching the language to edit it and still preserve its character, he was an excellent editor. And he may feel that he just knows how to do it on his own. I mean, we talk on the phone and I saw early versions of a lot of the poems.
gluck62	DB: Yeah, and Crush has become sort of a phenomenon.
gluck63	LG: A cult book, I know.
gluck64	DB: It's interesting. I mean, I remember I first heard about it at Bread Loaf that year. I was there and somebody said like, "Have you read Crush?" I was like, "No, I'm sorry." And then I caught it. We know the MFA students at Idaho, and some of them are teaching it. And the guy who was actually working for me in Digital based the final poem in his thesis off those lines and that sort of stanza style.	0:11:09
gluck65	LG: Well, a lot of people sound like him. You can see, they read the book and then they can't get out of it.
gluck66	DB: Yeah, that's the danger.
gluck67	LG: That's hard.
gluck68	DB: So your primary genre is poetry, correct? What kinds of devices do you have access to or use for writing?	0:11:48
gluck69	LG: I have access to an iPad—but I have never written anything on it except a terse email. And I cannot bear reading poems in that form. In fact today, there was a conversation with my publisher because I finally figured out a way—to their satisfaction—to convert their poetry listings to ebooks. The question was, would I give my permission. But I cannot bear reading poems in that form—scrolling down a page. You have no idea how long the thing is. You don't know whether you're in the middle or at the end.
gluck70	Miranda, who is my "daily editor," not my "big guy" editor, who was a student of mine at Yale—you know, it's very funny. I have all these students now in positions of—I hesitate to say "authority"—but I turn to them for solace and advice all the time. Miranda is quite great and her judgment is wonderful. And she was a wonderful beginning writer, too. Anyway, she said she thought it was a good idea. She said for people who are used to reading in this form, it's not such a violation. But it makes me uneasy. For example, when I was in Stanford and friends would send me drafts of poems as we do—as I do through the mail, or at Stanford, I would give something to a secretary—but I just have to go to someone who can print it out.
gluck71	DB: Print it out on paper.
gluck72	LG: Yeah. Well, I have to be able to move my pen around and make notes, first of all. I have to see what it looks like, what the duration is, and I have to be able to read the beginning and the end—I have to have it all in my head. Mainly it's that I don't know how to make notes otherwise. But I have this [iPad] that gives me fantastic pleasure in other ways. I love it and it's an endless amusement. I keep it very near my bed, or on my bed. If I wake in the middle of the night, I turn on the light and I see if anybody is writing to me. I always loved getting mail, and now I have that experience around the clock—except that I check it every four minutes, and I'm so heartbroken when there's no change. It's just that same old email from Amazon or some website that I patronized once. I have a regular old fashioned cell phone. I only got a cell phone about five years ago because I'm taxi-dependent and I needed to be on the street and calling the guy. So it doesn't receive emails or anything like that.	0:14:35
gluck73	DB: It's a regular iPad? Just, like, the first?
gluck74	LG: No—
gluck75	DB: The larger one or the smaller one?
gluck76	LG: The iPad that I have?
gluck77	DB: Yeah.
gluck78	LG: I'll show you, because how it looks is part of its story.
gluck79	DB: Okay.
gluck80	LG: Yeah, the little one—I don't know what size this is.
gluck81	DB: That's the regular size. They have the minis, now. That's the only kind of different size.
gluck82	LG: What happened was, I went to—some of this has to be off-the-record—this event. I was invited to this thing, the Golden Plate Award, sponsored-by/held-by something called "The Academy of Achievement." I mean, it sounds so spurious and ridiculous, but you showed up and you got $10,000. It was in Washington DC and the hotel was enormously swank—I mean, super swank. So I asked my agent to find out what was the fewest number of days I could go and still collect the fee, and it was one. So I scaled it way back, but then I found out when I arrived that the dinner the night before for the honorees had been in the Chambers of the Supreme Court with the Justices. Just the Justices and the honorees. I could've eaten dinner. This is the part that needs to be off the record.
gluck83	DB: Okay.
gluck84	LG: [{off the record}] but anyway, when I arrived, part of my welcome package was this thing [iPad], and it was all programmed with the winners and their bios. The entertainment, the last night when we all got our plates—
gluck85	DB: You actually got gold plates?
gluck86	LG: Yeah, I mean, the room was very, very good for a banquet meal. It was extraordinary. I mean, if you squared off this room, this is the whole thing. It certainly wasn't bigger. It might have been a little smaller. So picture an intimate space. I always want people to guess but it's ridiculous—what they are going to guess? It was like seeing Mozart: it was Aretha Franklin.
gluck87	DB: Really?
gluck88	LG: Aretha! She was there right where the tulips are. So the whole thing was eerie. Anyway, the guy gave me this [iPad] when I arrived. I said, "Don't give me this. I'm never going to use it. Give it to someone who can make use of it." He said, "I have to give it to you." And I said, "But I won't use it. I don't want it. I'll leave it in the hotel room. Please give it to someone else." He said, "I have to give it to you," and he thrust it at me and then I was holding it, and then I seemed to have it. So I took it to the hotel room and I'd seen how people push the screens so I pushed the screen. Nothing happened. I mean, it wasn't connected to anything, but I thought, "I apparently don't have the gift." So I then brought it home—well actually, I had somebody ship it to me—and then I kept looking at it and thinking, "I guess now that I own this, I should learn how to use it." But I lingered in that state for about six months and then at some point—I have former students from Yale I'm still in touch with, and the Yale students sometimes come up here to work on their stuff, and one did. And I said, "What do I have to do to learn how to use this?" He said, "Well, you need to get Wi-Fi." And I said, "How do I do that? Do I call AT&T? Do I call Comcast?" He said, "Call Comcast." So I called Comcast and they asked me questions I couldn't answer. "Do you have a blank? Do you blank-blank?" I said, "I know nothing. You have to just assume I have nothing."
gluck89	I thought, "This is not going to work." It wasn't working, so I called the student back and said, "Write me a script. Here's the kinds of things I was asked—tell me what I say." So I went back and I recited my script. Someone came to the house and installed a device. No one had told me that it had this little strobe flickers. And I am epileptic, so I thought, "Oh, this is never going to do." So I called the student again and he said, "You can turn it around. Just turn it so the strobe is facing another direction." And I did, but then I still didn't have an email account, so then someone else came up to work on poems and I got an email. Then, I was so horrified at this transformation that I didn't do anything for another six months!
gluck90	And then Robert Pinsky—I told him I had an email and he sent me a photo of one of his grandchildren. I opened this little thing and there was a photo. I thought, "Wow." So I learned certain skills. I still can't add an attachment. No, that's not what they are called. An app. I don't know how to add an app, so somebody has to do that when I—
gluck91	DB: Need an app.
gluck92	LG: Yeah. Like, I wanted HBO because I couldn't—
gluck93	DB: HBO To Go?
gluck94	LG: But then I have all of these names and passwords, and I can never remember what they are. Then they ask me, "You say you want to change your password?" Yes! And they ask me my special secret questions, which make absolutely no sense. "What is your favorite pet's name?" I didn't have pets. I mean, except when I was a child. And they say, "Well, we can't change the question because the person who this is came up with this question." And I think, "How could I? I never would have."
gluck95	DB: Right.
gluck96	LG: I still haven't figured that out, but now I try to write down the passwords in my phonebook, because they're such a long list in my head I don't know which one is for which.
gluck97	DB: Right.
gluck98	LG: So all that stuff I hate.
gluck99	DB: Yeah, it's such a daily part of life now. We all dislike it, and when it's new to someone, you also kind of realize how awful some of it is.
gluck100	LG: I like the adventure of the mail and I like watching a lot of television. And when I had bronchitis this winter it was wonderful, because there it was in bed with me. I didn't have to go anywhere. I didn't have to sit in a chair.	0:25:07
gluck101	DB: You had it all right there. And you had endless stuff too, right?
gluck102	LG: Yeah.
gluck103	DB: You have Netflix?
gluck104	LG: Everything.
gluck105	DB: Oh, okay. You're set.
gluck106	LG: Yeah! And I have another thing—I own Breaking Bad. Because I didn't want to wait for the last season.
gluck107	DB: Yeah, it's worth it. That was a pretty intense season.	0:25:47
gluck108	LG: Yeah. Once Gus died, the real spine went out of the show, in my view. But I loved it. I loved that show.
gluck109	DB: I did too. We just finished that one.
gluck110	LG: Oh yeah?
gluck111	DB: Not too long ago, yeah.
gluck112	LG: What else have you liked?
gluck113	DB: TV-wise? [To Kristin] What are we watching now?
gluck114	KRISTIN: The Americans.
gluck115	DB: The Americans is very good.
gluck116	LG: Is it good?
gluck117	DB: Yeah, that's a very good one.
gluck118	LG: Have you seen Friday Night Lights?
gluck119	DB: I've watched some of Friday Night Lights, but [to Kristin] you've never seen it, right?
gluck120	KRISTIN: No.
gluck121	DB: We need to do the whole thing.
gluck122	LG: You have to start from the beginning.
gluck123	DB: Yeah. I did it several years ago.
gluck124	LG: I loved that. I watched that at Stanford this year and I thought it was going to take me five weeks. I thought, "This is going to last me the whole of my Stanford experience. It's going to be great." And I finished in about two weeks, but then I didn't want to watch anything else. It's like when you read a really marvelous book. There was something about—I mean, I can watch things on demand—but there was something about the fact that I could do this anywhere. And if I went to a hotel, I could do it there. It was an amazing discovery for me. And I loved that show. I ended up watching the last season a second time. And then I still didn't want to watch anything else, so I watched the first season, and I was ready. But I have not found a new thing.
gluck125	DB: Since then?
gluck126	LG: Since then. Well, it's been a month.
gluck127	DB: Have you watched The Wire?
gluck128	LG: Oh, yes. I watched The Wire on TV at Frank's [Frank Bidart] house. Because he has equipment. He has lab-quality equipment.
gluck129	DB: Well, I'll think of some other ones, for sure.
gluck130	LG: Okay.
gluck131	DB: Yeah, we should talk about it.
gluck132	LG: Yeah, if you think about it, let me know.
gluck133	DB: I'll let you know—we watch a lot of TV.
gluck134	LG: Okay. I want a title for my book, and television recommendations.
gluck135	DB: Okay.
gluck136	LG: All right, moving along. So far this is a dud of an interview, isn't it? We haven't had any technical discussion.
gluck137	DB: No, it's good though! It's good. It's about being a person. I've got to kind of adjust on the fly, here, but I think I'll just skip these. Because you don't really write poems on the iPad. You never have them in digital format until they go to your publisher, essentially. And then they will—do you know how they do it?
gluck138	LG: I send them a typed script, which is kind of harrowing because then I have to proof the digital and be sure there haven't been mistakes. And there are always huge mistakes. I could pay somebody to do it, but it would still be the same problem of having to proof it. I imagine that I'm stuck with that for life, because I cannot imagine typing poems on that board.
gluck139	DB: So when you send it to FSG, and then someone types—or do they scan it? I mean, do you know how they do it?
gluck140	LG: No.
gluck141	DB: Okay. Because I mean, there are ways they should be able to do it—
gluck142	LG: I can tell you who would know if you want to ask.
gluck143	DB: Yeah?
gluck144	LG: Do you want?
gluck145	DB: Maybe. I don't know.
gluck146	LG: All right.
gluck147	DB: I'm just interested—once they do that, then they send it back to you and you make sure that everything is right? I mean, you go back and forth with them with the proofs for quite a bit, right?
gluck148	LG: Yeah, right.
gluck149	DB: I remember when I was a student. I think you had—would it have been Vita Nova or Seven Ages you were working on?
gluck150	LG: I don't know.
gluck151	DB: You were telling me how you were reading it backwards.
gluck152	LG: Oh yeah. I still do that. It's horrible, and you need someone to help you.
gluck153	DB: Right. And your poems are fairly memorized? Almost all of them?
gluck154	LG: Lots of them.
gluck155	DB: And especially when you're working in the book—like when you're going back through—you're hearing it?
gluck156	LG: Your eye makes substitutions, so unless you read it out of order—i.e. backwards—you're going to be doing that.	0:29:59
gluck157	DB: Okay. That was the first section, but there's not much to it because it's mostly digital. But then this is more practice. So I've kind of delineated the writing process into kind of a three-step sort of thing. So there's the composition, there's the revision, and then there's the sort of the organizational-archival point. And that's just my kind of construction for this interview. If that doesn't make sense to you, we could talk about it in different ways.
gluck158	LG: It's fine.
gluck159	DB: I have kind of like the beginning questions, which are kind of to give us an idea about the arc of your career. And this question I'm sure you'll love: How long have you been writing professionally, would you say?
gluck160	LG: Well, I was trying to write professionally—I've been writing since I was a child. And I had a very high opinion of my early work, so I was sending books out to publishers in my early teens.	0:30:46
gluck161	DB: Oh really?
gluck162	LG: Well, they were uniformly rejected. But I did have that intense dream, and I developed—as anybody has to—a very tough skin. I mean, I had enormous vanity, so every time one was rejected, it didn't matter that I was 15 years old. I thought, "I'm never going to write better than this. This is the climax of my vision and no one wants it." That was hard, but I continued to send things out, and when I started working on what became my first book, I was in my late teens. And from the time I was, I think, 23, until it was published, I think, when I was 25—something like that—I had, I think, 28 rejections. A lot, but I had some poems in magazines. But all of that was in place by the time I was, probably, 12.
gluck163	DB: That sort of the ambition and drive?
gluck164	LG: Yeah. And then there were long periods of not writing at all that were harrowing—and continue to be harrowing—and I had different mechanisms for trying to get through them. The greatest discovery was teaching. Because I finally learned after the first really lengthy—this is completely off the track of where you want to go, isn't it?
gluck165	DB: No—my next question is "Describe the arc of your career," so this is pretty much—
gluck166	LG: Oh all right. Well, the first time that that happened—when the first one had been published—I had pretty much done what was in me to do. I had also evolved a style in which there were no complete sentences. There were just little bullet-like fragments. And every time I thought to write, I could no longer make the sentence so it was going to be grammatical. I could no longer, it struck me, write a sentence. So I realized, there was something about that particular wall that I had hit that had to do with syntax. And I thought, "I have to write poems—like Milton's sonnet on this blindness—that are all one sentence, or as close to that as I can manage." And I couldn't do it. I couldn't do anything that approached it, and I couldn't, at the same time, write fragments anymore.	0:33:17
gluck167	The more I couldn't write, the more I repudiated the world. I thought that the problem was that I was too worldly, too involved in the world, too diverse in my interests, so I became more and more hermetic and dedicated. I would sit at this—I was living in Provincetown for part of this time, and in New York City—and I would sit in Provincetown at a very beautiful desk that was made for me by my photographer boyfriend with all of these marvelous objects to gaze at, and it was just horrifying. And, you know, on a good day, I would write an article—"The." And on a really good day, there would be a noun—"Tree." But I couldn't get beyond that, and I thought, "I have not consecrated myself sufficiently. There needs to be more foreswearing."
gluck168	And I had a bed-of-nails kind of life—just sitting in the sort of "soup" of my failure for a year. During that time, I had one or two teaching job offers. In those years, it was much easier because the economy was different then, you know. There weren't all of these MFA programs. And especially if you were female. I had a book out, but I don't know that I would have gotten a tenure-year track job given my spotty education. But I had these offers, and I kept saying, "No, no, no, no," because poets shouldn't teach! I mean, there was that long list of things poet shouldn't do. They should never have children. They shouldn't teach. They shouldn't go out in the world. They couldn't eat. But finally, I was invited to do a colloquium in Vermont. And I hated Provincetown, but I didn't know how—I didn't want to just begin moving in a sort of pin-the-tail-on-the-map kind of way. I was making my living as a secretary, and I could have done that anywhere in that period, but I thought, "I'll just stay here until the future presents itself."	0:35:44
gluck169	So I went to do this colloquium, partly because John Berryman was there and he was a hero of mine, and I wanted to be able to pay tribute to him. I wanted to say, "You are a great artist and I salute you." Which I did get to say, but he thought I was just, you know, a chick on the make. I didn't know how to say to him, "You don't understand—I've never said these words." In any case, I realized about the minute I got to Vermont, I thought, "I'm supposed to live here." I just instantly loved the place. It was a four-day thing, and there were all these English teachers at Goddard College—a hippie institution with a naked dorm and things like that—and they said, "You should come here and teach." I thought, "Why not? I'm not a poet. I have to face this disastrous fact and make a life." So I said yes. And of course they weren't empowered to offer me a job. They were just drunken English teachers who liked me.
gluck170	But by then, I had had a sort of epiphany, and I corresponded with two of those people who are my still oldest, dearest friends—Ellen Voigt and prose writer Kathryn Davis. Three days before the semester started, there was a job cobbled together for me for one semester, and I moved to Vermont and I got a room in a rooming house with a bathroom down the hall. The minute I started teaching, I started writing again. I still feel about teaching that it's the most miraculous thing I've ever discovered, because I can't always write, and long periods go by and I don't write. But I can always teach, and I will always meet people who fascinate me and who are doing things, who have minds that go places my mind has never gone. And I won't find that stuff in books by dead people I'm contemporaries—new sounding stuff. It changes me and electrifies me, and to work on material that is still malleable—it was like the experience of working on my own stuff, but I didn't feel competitive. A lot of that was so strange, because I am very competitive by nature, but not with my students, and I wanted those poems to be as great as they could be, in my view. So, still, that has served me very well, especially once I discovered undergraduates, because I could know them for four years, and Williams was nirvana, you know. I got there and I thought, "I'd never been around such smart people." I was terrified, but I also was thrilled. And a lot of those years were years when I couldn't do anything, but then some of them were years when I was writing a blue streak. And it was never, "I teach one semester, and then I write," or, "I teach, and I write in between classes." No—I mean, if I was writing, I would write when I taught. In fact, after the experience in Provincetown at the sacred desk, I have a horror of the special place—the secluded cabin, the writer's retreat. I just can't bear them. I want to be without tools. I often have no pencil and no paper, so I have to borrow them or buy them. But I don't want to presume anything. If there's going to be a line coming into my head, that'll be great.
gluck171	So the shape has always been periods in the desert—you know, without language—and then work. After I was 50, most of my books were written very fast. Like in six to eight weeks.
gluck172	DB: Which book did that start with?	0:42:59
gluck173	LG: The Wild Iris. After that, I thought, "I can do anything. I can fly planes." And I can remember my husband saying, "You are going to really hit the wall very soon," and he was right. I developed neurological symptoms. I had not slept the whole of that summer, practically, and one side of my face started twitching. And I had to teach that fall, and I remember sitting in class like this so that nobody would see that my face was—
gluck174	DB: Oh, wow.
gluck175	LG: The neurologist said, "I don't think this is anything. It will probably go away in a couple of months." Which it did. But every so often I think something like that could come back again, you know? I mean, it's weird to write that fast, and you don't have a sense of agency. It's very hard to revise, because you don't remember writing it. You just were sitting there, and then it was. The last two books—Village Life and the new one—were slower, but they were steady, especially Village Life. With the newer one, there were lots of moments when I thought, "This is never going to be a book. I don't know how to put this material together."
gluck176	DB: If you could think back to before you hit this sort of stride where you were producing books very quickly, what was it like, say, writing House on Marshlands?	0:44:57
gluck177	LG: Long. It took many years. I revised poems heavily and constantly. One poem, I remember, took two years to write—"For my mother." The opening lines—"It was better when we were together in one body"—I had those lines in my head for a really long time. And at the beginning, I felt very grateful, because I thought, "Oh, two really beautiful lines—this is going to be a poem. This is exciting. I have at least these lines to cling to." And then time went by and nothing happened—no other language attached to that little shard. So those phrases, that language, became a torment. It was the first thing I would hear in the morning and murmured in my head, and the last thing I would hear at night. But it was a chastisement, a torment—"You don't know what I'm for!"
gluck178	DB: Right.
gluck179	LG: And I tried to convince myself it was a haiku, you know? I thought, "Well, maybe it's just a very austere, abbreviated poem," but I didn't think that and nobody I showed it to thought that, either. So that took really a very, very, very, very long time to write, and had lots of different approaches, and ended up being a kind of collage of pieces of language from different old poems.
gluck180	DB: During that time, you just were working on the one poem?
gluck181	LG: I was for a long time, yeah.
gluck182	DB: So there weren't other poems coming in and out at this stage? Is that traditionally how you work? It's just one poem, and then the next poem, and then you finish?
gluck183	LG: Yeah, and then sometimes there will be a massive revision. One edition to an accumulating manuscript makes it clear how the thing should be ordered, and then you see you can make a lot of short, little changes in the other stuff because of this new thing. So some of the books are slower. The earlier books were revised much more—the later books, less. Though there were revisions in all of them, and though most of them preceded, at some point, rapidly from, I would say, Averno on, there were hiatuses. Averno was written in two fast periods.
gluck184	DB: And is one October? Because that was such a good chapbook, and then—
gluck185	LG: Yeah. I had "October" and I had "Prism," and I thought, "These two poems can't be in the same book. I mean, they are just complete opposites." Then there were two years when I wrote nothing. I haven't attended to this in recent years, but for many decades, I kept this chart of what I wrote and when, and each year would be written at the top of—no, the years were like that and the months were like that. And if I wrote a poem then I would write its name, and if I wrote nothing, I would write an X.
gluck186	So when I got depressed, I would take this thing out and I would see all these lines of X's, and then at the end, there would be a little gust, and the little gust would be completely different from what had preceded the X's. So I began to be—I mean, "trust" is a little strong, but—I just figured this is how it goes with me. There's a period usually now after I finish something of being happy, because I don't have to write. I feel kind of on vacation, and I have a sense of secret pleasure because no one has seen it and no one has anything to say about it, but I love it and it's finished. Last year was such a happy year for that reason, because—[neighbor's dog barking in background]—that's on tape!	0:49:24
gluck187	DB: I'll send you little clips.	0:50:37
gluck188	LG: Yeah! I'll give it to them. They made me take my plants—I had this beautiful antique trunk in the hall with a Celadon vase of pussy willow.
gluck189	DB: Yeah, I remember that.
gluck190	LG: It's still foregrounded in my brain. Anyway—so all the rest of those poems in Averno were written after this two-year gap, and very fast. Really fast. And none of it figured out. I mean, I didn't have "Persephone," I didn't have any of the rigging. I'd been reading a lot of Henning Mankell, and I was trying to put an image from each of his novels in one of my poems.
gluck191	DB: Oh, okay. Is he a mystery writer?
gluck192	LG: Yeah, Swedish. I hate travel but I was—
gluck193	DB: Is this the Nero Wolfe book?
gluck194	LG: Nero Wolfe? No, that's different. That's Rex Stout. That was from much longer ago. No, Mankell is living.
gluck195	DB: Okay.
gluck196	LG: Swedish. Married to one of Ingmar Bergman's daughters.
gluck197	DB: Wow.
gluck198	LG: Yeah, and I think he's a genius. I love those books. I think he's a great prose stylist. I would recommend them. Start with One Step Behind, though. Don't start at the beginning, because the first book is not good, and you wouldn't read the rest.
gluck199	DB: Okay.
gluck200	LG: But very dreary, compelling. His detective plods ahead and he notices small things that don't make sense and turns them over in his mind, but he's not a fire brand, and he's not handsome. And there's a kind of dreary sameness to his days, but the books are fantastic, in what their notion of "triumph" is. Triumph is persistence, and then it turns into comprehension, you know. A pattern is revealed. I love them. So I was reading those, and I think something of his prose style crept into my poems. I don't know that another person would think that but—	0:52:40
gluck201	DB: In Averno or—?
gluck202	LG: In Averno.
gluck203	DB: Did it transfer through into A Village Life at all or no?
gluck204	LG: No. That was it.
gluck205	DB: That was it. That was the book.
gluck206	LG: Yeah.
gluck207	DB: Okay. So you had your sort of first period of silence after Firstborn, and until you started teaching at Goddard, was it like that sort of repetition every time? I mean, if you finished a book, you had the pleasure, but then you also had the silence or—?
gluck208	LG: Sometimes, yeah. With Marshland, there were a lot of silences.
gluck209	DB: During the composition?
gluck210	LG: It took about six, seven years. I mean, Firstborn was published in 1968, but it was finished in '66, and House on Marshland was ‘75. I was put in touch with Dan Halpern—who was starting Ecco—by Stanley Kunitz. Stanley said, "This young sport loves your work." I thought I don't want to have to send this out twenty-eight times, and so I thought, "I'll just go with someone Stanley recommends who loves it." So it was published pretty soon after it was done. So that was a very, very long period, but I feel as though Firstborn is just an artifact from another life, and that really my writing life began with House on Marshland. I think, you know, I can see how each book came out of its predecessor after that.
gluck211	DB: What do you mean by that? Could you point to poems in the previous book that were harbingers of the next, or sort of turns of language? I know you speak in your interviews about how you go through and try to eliminate the language of the one book before you move on to the next.	0:55:52
gluck212	LG: Yeah, but even in that sense, certain stylistic tics you try to recognize and prohibit—the way I tried to prohibit fragments—they seem like the work of the same person on some sort of journey. I try to make them as different as possible.
gluck213	DB: I'm interested in what the work of doing that is. I mean, is it that you've just lived with these poems so often that you recognize immediately what the stylistic tics are and that they are easy to do? Or is it that when you read through the book and it's finished, you're like, "Oh I see that, and I see that, and these are the things that I need to really work on eliminating."
gluck214	LG: I never see it when I'm working on the book.
gluck215	DB: Yeah, which should be probably suffocating.
gluck216	LG: Yeah. And so it's only afterward I think, "Well, I can't do that again." And then sometimes you see things like, "Isn't it odd? I've never used a contraction. Ever," and then you think, "Well, I guess I have to figure out how to use a contraction." And that becomes a whole—well, what you realize is that that's quotidian speech. That was what I hadn't used, and so then in order to use contractions and questions, the Delphic voice evaporates, and the human is introduced in its place. That was a hard moment, because a lot of people who admired my work admired it for exactly the thing that was now no longer present.
gluck217	DB: What period was this?
gluck218	LG: Triumph of Achilles.
gluck219	DB: Okay. So coming in Triumph of Achilles, that was one of the tics? Or that was one of the changes that was being made?
gluck220	LG: Yeah.
gluck221	DB: Right. So Triumph of Achilles to—what's the next one?
gluck222	LG: Ararat.
gluck223	DB: Ararat and then Meadowlands, and then The Wild Iris.
gluck224	LG: No, other way—Wild Iris, Meadowlands. It's okay. You're pretty current.
gluck225	DB: I'm pretty close. I've been reading the collected and it's so interesting to kind of like move through time as you're moving through. How did you feel about that, I mean, by publishing the collected poems?
gluck226	LG: Oh, it surprised me, because I always thought it was a terrible idea. Well, first of all, it's not the collected, and I didn't think of it as that. But it's fifty years of writing. I was initially appalled—and then amazed—at its size, because I thought it would be about three hundred pages long. But then when Miranda said, initially, six hundred and eighty-eight, I said, "No one will buy this! We have to squeeze it. It has to get littler." I thought it was a valedictory gesture. I thought it was suicidal to do. Most of my life, I was repelled by it in principle. The idea of doing it myself was horrifying. I mean, I never read my old books. I have no reason to. But at some point, I had to do something from a bunch of books, where I had to do reading, and I was asked to do more of that. So I was reading through the books, and I didn't hate them. I mean, often, once you finish and you're euphoric, then pretty soon you feel a sense of humiliation and shame. You just don't want to think about what you've just done. So then after that, you don't go back—you're trying to prove you can write by writing something else. Or, you know, the book gets horrible reviews and you have this feeling of "I'll show you. You wait. I'm going to knock your pants off," and of course the people's pants don't come off. But I was reading these old books, and I liked them. I was proud that I wrote them. I remember a couple of years ago—I sometimes do Tarot readings with Dana Levin. Dana's sister is a professional clairvoyant and Dana is very good with cards, and I trust her greatly. So we were doing one—I guess I had done the cards with Dana, but then Dana's sister, Karen the clairvoyant was visiting her, so we had a three-way conversation on my birthday for a birthday present about the reading. Karen asked me questions sort of the way a shrink does, you know, leading questions. She said, "What have you been thinking about?" I said, "Writing." Somehow, it came up that I was very frightened by this pleasure that I was taking in my old work because I feared it meant I would do no new work. Karen said, "I think you have to embrace that. I think that's"—she didn't use words like "path," but, you know—"that's what you have to do. You can't pretend that you're not feeling it. You just must follow that feeling and see where it leads."
gluck227	So where it led was to a readiness to see these books all put together, which had been proposed earlier. In fact, I was contractually obliged to do it, but I would never have been pressed. And there was always the problem of the fact that Ecco owned most of the books, and Dan Halpern resented—for a very long time, possibly still continuing to this moment—my switching publishers, which I did simply because it's interesting to be elsewhere. I missed the attention.
gluck228	DB: With which book was it that you moved?
gluck229	LG: Averno. It was a very inflamed parting, and for a long time, he wouldn't relinquish any of the books he owned. So none of that was possible, but it was fine, because I didn't want it. Then, somehow or another, that was all negotiated, and I did want it. I found it invigorating and generally a very pleasant thing. It made me feel I didn't have to do a big square thing anymore. Anything I did was gravy. And I really like this new book. It's not like anything else that I have done. It's sort of surreal. It has got prose poems in it.	1:03:41
gluck230	DB: That's going to be a shocker.
gluck231	LG: I don't think people are going to like it, or understand it. I think of it as very kind of lighthearted, or with a kind of—well, there's a lightness in it, a kind of casual, shrugging bravado that I like. It's not beautiful like certain of the lyric books. But a lot of people think it's terrifying, because a lot of it is about the end of time. But it's not written as a struggle, and it's not written as capitulation. It's written as, "What do you know?" I mean, there are poems in it that are not unlike what you do, you know? That kind of scratching-your-head thing, but a kind of merry bleakness.
gluck232	DB: Yeah, that's always a pleasurable place to be. Did you find in actually writing those poems that there was a different way—like physically—that you were going after them or anything else?	1:06:05
gluck233	LG: Well, the last couple of books, I've written a lot of it longhand, which was a great surprise, because everything up until Averno was written on a typewriter. All of the composition.
gluck234	DB: Including Firstborn?
gluck235	LG: No, Firstborn was by hand, and then everything from Marshland to Averno was composed on a typewriter. It's one of the reasons that my papers are not valuable, because there will be pages with little scribbles, but usually I just put in a new piece. So if somebody goes through all of these typewritten drafts, unless the person happens to know my work intimately—
gluck236	DB: Wouldn't know that.
gluck237	LG: It just looks like a lot of typed poems with no author's hand apparent. I started keeping a journal when I had whiplash, because someone said, "You should start writing about what it feels like, because you'll discover that you're not in as much pain as you think you are." Ha-ha. I mean, I certainly was. But I started this notebook detailing my whiplash symptoms and the agony that they entailed. I always did it in bed at night, reviewing my day, and it became the most crucial piece of my day. That, and listening to the telephone weather forecast, which became Village Life. I figured that out, but it took a long time. So I would listen to the weather forecast, and then I would redial and listen to it again. There was this wonderful voice that would say, "Good evening, Boston," and you would realize that the same thing was going to happen to everybody. You weren't just selected specially to be rained on, you know? Everyone was going to have rain. And it was the first time I actually understood that everyone was going to have something. I mean, all those times I stood in the drug isles of the supermarket, thinking, "Louise, they can't have made all these products just for you. There's a market. Someone else is buying these things." And then I would think, "Yeah, they're buying them, but they only use half, whereas I need ten."
gluck238	But the weather did make that knowledge present. And meanwhile, I was writing my whiplash symptoms and I would get in a very spacey place, so I started making notes for poems. So as not to interfere or confuse things, I did the poems in the back of the book moving toward the middle, and my pain journal from the front, and then I'd start a new notebook. After the whiplash went away—surprise—there were many other things to complain about in daily life. So this sort of diary of grief, complaint, misery, fear, chronic anxiety—occasional nice things reported—but mainly, the book was sacred to that, and it was a real source of sweetness in my life. Even when I didn't have a bad day, or I didn't have any real pain or I wasn't sick, I felt that I owed it to the book to say the worst. So there would always be that, and then there would be these notes. So I have a whole bunch of these eerie notebooks, and I realized that it was working kind of well. Once I started working on the poem, then I would work on it the way I always had. Only a lot of it was longhand, and the lines were getting differently shaped. The advantage of that was I could also do it when I was commuting. So I had a car service in those years, and Averno was the first thing I did when I was at Yale. I remember working on the poems in the car, and then I would transcribe them into the notebook in the back. At a certain point, each one would have to be, there would be enough material so I had to play that on the typewriter and see how it looked in type.
gluck239	One fact of working on the typewriter that's either—I don't know whether it's an advantage or not, and I imagine for prose it would be. My prose writer friends all love the computer, but when I get to an impasse or an awkward line, I have to start over. So it's a new sheet of paper, and you have to do the whole thing again, and problems emerge in those retypings, like your fingers will hesitate over something you thought was resolved, and you realize it's not resolved. You realize you have to do something different.
gluck240	DB: So you were kind of making those revisions in the actual transcription work? They were coming to you almost like a practiced feel of the rhythms?
gluck241	LG: Yeah, your hands wouldn't type it. You realize something was wrong. Either the line was wrong in how it was lineated—which would be simple to resolve—or the whole trajectory of the poem was awry.
gluck242	DB: And then you would have to go back and do more.
gluck243	LG: Yeah.
gluck244	DB: At that point, would you do more work in the notebook before you went back to the typewriter?
gluck245	LG: It varied. Then what would happen would be I'd have these typewriter sheets, and I would start working on them, but in the same timeframe.
gluck246	DB: Okay, so back and forth.
gluck247	LG: Yeah. They cancelled the weather report, by the way, because of the omnipresence of that.
gluck248	DB: Absolutely.
gluck249	KRISTIN: I have to go feed the meter.
gluck250	DB: Okay, great. Do you have a visitor pass? We parked with a car.
gluck251	LG: Yeah.
gluck252	KRISTIN: Sure, I can move closer.
gluck253	DB: That would be easier and then you could just park right here and then we can give it back to her.
gluck254	LG: Make sure you're in a legal place.
gluck255	KRISTIN: Yeah, as long as it is in the permit parking.
gluck256	LG: Yeah.
gluck257	KRISTIN: Thanks.
gluck258	LG: That won't work.
gluck259	DB: Were there any other things like the weather report for any other books? I mean, did that ever happen before? Were there any sort of other—?
gluck260	LG: It was Village Life, really, that was—
gluck261	DB: No other books had like something like a ritual to which you were responding in some sense?
gluck262	LG: Well, Wild Iris was the garden. I had been reading garden catalogues for two years. I had two years of writing nothing, and all I had read was garden catalogues. Plus, I'd seen when I first moved to Vermont the clairvoyant, who told me I would write five books, and I had written five. Ararat was the fifth. I thought, "That's it," and I thought, "It's obvious, because there's no beauty in Ararat. It's just the whole lyric gift is dribbling away. I read garden catalogues and listened to Don Giovanni for two years, and I thought, "I'm brain dead. Of course I can't write."	1:15:12
gluck263	DB: And that came in a burst, like in February or something?
gluck264	LG: No, it was Summer. I started walking around the garden, which had been the only thing that I did. And things were coming out of the ground and I thought, "I'll try and write something about a flower."
gluck265	DB: Now we have an idea of handwriting to the typewriter and what not. What was it like when you were just typewriting your poems? Would you sit down at your desk or wherever—I mean, the typewriter is kind of a wieldy thing. You have to be one place, wherever you were.
gluck266	LG: No—it would always be episodic, and it didn't have to be MY typewriter. For example, I remember when I was working on Vita Nova, I remember writing some of those poems on an airplane. I wrote two on one transcontinental flight, and then I got to Irvine and I had to borrow a typewriter. But that was possible. And then I had to work it out on typewriter. But at that particular point, I was really on a roll. Everything was turning into a poem. So I felt I could be anywhere, and I could write with anything. I could write with food coloring.
gluck267	DB: Charcoal.
gluck268	LG: Yeah, and I could make actually very crude, like, power points, and I would know how to assemble them.
gluck269	DB: Oh that's fantastic. So when you're in that sort of stage, are they just coming to you? Are they coming from overheard statements? Or it's all just there, and you're just kind of waiting to release it?
gluck270	LG: It's nothing overheard. It's just some weird brain corner that suddenly you have access to, and it's like a temporary shelter—it exists for a very short time, and it's not like you think, "I could go back there." You just think.	1:18:15
gluck271	DB: Do you see any patterns—now that you've had these experiences happen again and again—that sort of anticipate your getting to where that brain corner opens up, or is it mysterious?
gluck272	LG: No, it's always mysterious. And the last two books have been a little slower in what I felt was a good way, because the stamina called for in that other kind of composition is so extreme. Plus, you don't get a very prolonged experience of immersion. You get a very intense, fast hit, but I really liked the feeling that I had. It was like writing a novel. In Village Life, I had this sound to go to that was like a place and it was accessible. I could get there. It wasn't like this special trick pony. It meant that the composition was a year, which still seems pretty fast, but it's not as fast as six weeks. That was Vita Nova. That was the fastest.
gluck273	DB: Six weeks was the fastest. How long was Wild Iris?
gluck274	LG: More like nine weeks, but there were three poems that were written the year before. They just were crap, but once I wrote The Wild Iris, once I wrote the bulk of that book, the crappy poems didn't seem so crappy. Did you know Elizabeth Langston, David and Meredith's daughter?
gluck275	LG: Did you know David and Meredith at all?	1:20:46
gluck276	DB: No.
gluck277	LG: You didn't take a classics class? Well, she's my godchild, and she was, at that point, very little. This was in a period where I was writing nothing, and I said, "Elizabeth, give me a title, or a first line." And I thought, "If Elizabeth asked me to write a poem, I'd have to do it." And she did, and it got used.
gluck278	DB: What was it?
gluck279	LG: Red Rose on a Lowly Vine. It didn't get called that, finally, but it was a little song-like valentine of a poem. But then, I mean, if it looks to you like that's your output for two years, it's bad.
gluck280	DB: Yeah.
gluck281	LG: But it had a place in that book. Wild Iris was the first book I wrote fast, but it had these three weak-ish poems that became absorbed into it. So I don't know what will happen now. I imagine I'll descend into some abyss and then it's just the question of how much more you get to do. I'm still feeling surprisingly happy with my last one, and I know that until I hate it, nothing is going to happen.
gluck282	DB: How long have you been finished with it?
gluck283	LG: It will be a year in September. So it's still a baby.
gluck284	DB: So, you have a kind of final sense of finality for these things—do you have like a physical sensation when that happens, or is it that your brain stops moving in that direction, and it's off?	1:22:54
gluck285	LG: Well, you can sometimes have that, but it isn't finished.
gluck286	DB: Okay.
gluck287	LG: I mean, that has happened to me a number of times. It always means that there's something that isn't written yet, even though you just can't imagine what it is. Meadowlands was like that. I thought, "I can't write another of these." But it was clear. I was good at putting books together, and I can figure out what each body of work seems to need, but there was no way to put that together. Something was missing, and I thought it was probably some more sonorous tone, but it wasn't that. It was Telemachus was missing.
gluck288	DB: Oh okay.
gluck289	LG: And I wrote those poems in, I think, 10 days, and then it was a breeze. I mean, the whole thing came into place.
gluck290	DB: I like that book.
gluck291	LG: I like that book, too.
gluck292	DB: It's very funny.
gluck293	LG: It's very funny, I know. I think it's a scream. And I like that. I mean, I like tonal variety a lot, and I like it in what I read. But I think with the last two books—I drove people crazy with Village Life, because I had maybe four hundred different orders, and they were all not right.
gluck294	DB: I could see that being difficult to put together.
gluck295	LG: I knew where I wanted to start. I knew where I wanted to end, but—
gluck296	DB: In between?
gluck297	LG: I think it was a matter, too, of something needing to be added.
gluck298	DB: Did you learn how to put together books like this? What was your education of that sense?
gluck299	LG: We learn from the material, and I think I learned from students, too. I think that I'm a very good editor. I always felt if I had stuff on the page, I would have some good instincts. I mean, if there was anything to be gotten out of that material, I would find it. So, a sort of sense of being able to put to use the most pathetic, limited samples of language. But if you just give me some words, it doesn't matter how bad they are—I can do something. And I felt the same about manuscripts. I thought, "If there's a way to put it together, I'll find it." My own books and other people's books, too. I mean, in a way, I'm sure I drive some people crazy because I just look at their manuscripts and I say, "No. Just leave it all to me. You're doing this terribly."
gluck300	I was that kind of a mother, you know. I would say, "Don't feed yourself, really. You just don't know how to do it. You sit—I'll feed you." People don't like that, and it's also possible that one could be wrong, or that there could be something I miss. But I think it was something that you learn when you write very slowly. You don't have a huge outpouring—you have a small amount that you have to make go as far as you can, so you learn how to move the parts of the poem around. You learn how to be an editor out of a sense of lack, and from that grows a capacity to organize disparate things into something that has a sense of dramatic shape.
gluck301	DB: And that sense of dramatic shape—is that your intention for most of your collections?	1:27:55
gluck302	LG: I want the books to seem like that, but it's not as though when I'm working on them I know what it is. I pretty much don't.
gluck303	DB: When do you get that sense?
gluck304	LG: When I'm starting to put it together. And then you start seeing these weird overlaps and resonances and echoes that you hadn't planned. Proofing my new book, I see the strangest parallels and language recurrences that—I mean, you could say yes, you have a limited vocabulary and so of course there's going to be a recurrence of these words that you use, because you still remember them—but it's like dreams, you know? Somehow, the mind is making an organization that is beyond what the comprehending or apprehending faculties take-in, initially.
gluck305	DB: So when you're working just on an individual poem and you're revising it, what's the mode there, when you're going back? Are you deleting, are you substituting, or—whatever the poem needs—you're in service to it?	1:29:24
gluck306	LG: Yeah. I mean, if I can tell myself that a poem can't be made with just deleting things, that's great. That's two for the price of one. You get the deleted lines—if they're any good—to use somewhere else, and you get a poem. But, oftentimes, you can't just delete. Often, you can take out everything that's weak and transitions that are obvious, but what you then wrecked is the feeling of duration—the poem has become too brisk, and needs to have a feeling of more languorous unfolding. So then that's a problem, because you don't know whether you're supposed to add in the places where you had material before, or were they the wrong places—was that part of the problem? But each poem is its own little task. You know, for a long time, it's a problem you haven't solved, and then it becomes something that you have solved.
gluck307	DB: Is it the same feeling of finality that you have with a collection that you have with an individual poem? That there's nothing more to be done?
gluck308	LG: Yeah. But also that it gives you pleasure, that you like the shape that it makes. And you like it better than you thought you ever could. So all these poems you just thought were so cumbersome and that there was no way they could be organized—you just didn't see it. Suddenly, you actually like them again.
gluck309	DB: Has your mode of revision, has that changed at all over the course, or has it been fairly consistent?
gluck310	LG: I'm sure it's quite different, but I wouldn't even know how to say. I mean, the poems are so different that it must be that the approach is different.
gluck311	DB: Right.
gluck312	LG: I mean, now, I much more like approximation. I like a sense in the poem of not the sort of honed, perfect bon mot, you know, the epigrammatic. I want more of a kind of speech—a sense of casting about for a phrase. I like that feeling. Human-sounding. Ruminative, rather than exalted. But, you know, I think of Averno as—the book has always seemed to me vertical, and some of them seem horizontal. Usually, they alternate, so there will be a kind of awe-to-despair book, followed by panoramic book. But the last two books seemed to me kind of spreading, though they're very different from each other. How many people are you going to do this with?
gluck313	DB: Ten.
gluck314	LG: Jesus, you'll be out of your mind.
gluck315	DB: I know, it's okay. We'll see how it goes. You're number seven? Eight?
gluck316	LG: Oh! You've done a lot.
gluck317	DB: Yeah, I've done quite a few.
gluck318	LG: Does everyone sound different?
gluck319	DB: Yes. It's very interesting what people want to talk about. I've done people who know me and who don't know me, and so there's some wariness, and sometimes there's not. Sometimes the people who know me are more wary of the questions. Honestly, the questions haven't really been asked, but you've answered them without my asking them, so that's good. It's a good sign, I think.
gluck320	LG: I hope so. Well, we could do it again if you don't have anything to use.
gluck321	DB: No, I think there's plenty. So, when you're revising are you reading them out loud to yourself? Is it part of your craft as some of the other writers have said?
gluck322	LG: I keep trying to make this point in poetry readings. I hear with my eyes. I mean, the experience of reading a poem—for me, with my eyes—contains an oral experience. And when I hear it, I feel angry. I feel that there's an obstacle between me and the it of the poem. And the obstacle is the reader, who is determining and deploying emphasis. Also, the form, which is turning a kind of web-like experience into a narrative—everything goes by once. And the argument made is, "Yes, but then you can't hear it." But I don't hear it when it's read to me, and I don't moderate to myself. I hear it in my head, though, and I hum it in my head.
gluck323	DB: You can hear almost, like, musical notes, or tones?
gluck324	LG: I can hear rhythmic structures. I remember with Meadowlands, I had this sense of the book—it was the only time I had this—I felt I had a whole book in my head. I just didn't have a single word. But what I had was rhythmic alternations. I had shapes that were clustered, and then some more open shapes—it was almost as though it was a musical line, and I would hear the rising and the falling. I would hear choral parts. I even tried to annotate it in some way so that I could follow it, but it was like a hum. I heard somebody say—a thinker of some kind, not a poet—something about the way a child learns speech lying in its cradle and hearing the shapes made by the speech that surrounds it. It doesn't understand words yet, but it understands. And for me, poems have been like that. I mean, I remember reading—when I was really, really young—not baby poems, but great poems. Shakespeare's songs. And I'm sure I had no idea what was being talked of—none—but I felt I was getting something out of those poems. I could hear "Fear no more the heat of the sun." I could hear the grandeur of that. The rhythm. I mean, somebody could turn it into an act of scanning the line, but that makes it so kind of plodding. But I did hear things that way, but with my eyes. I mean, my eyes turn what I see not into argument or a reasoned thing. A lot of that stuff I miss. What is the poem saying? I often have no idea. But I know how it sounds.	1:36:20
gluck325	DB: Because sound's a sort of intelligent communication, too.	1:39:13
gluck326	LG: Yeah.
gluck327	DB: That's really fascinating.
gluck328	LG: Well, I'm sure there must be a lot of people who write who have this. Who feel that sound comes to them visually.
gluck329	DB: It's almost synesthesia, right? It's close to that sort of description, but it's not—not quite, really, but it's an interesting correlation.
gluck330	LG: Yeah.
gluck331	DB: I know you work with fellow poets on your poems, correct? I mean, you're sending stuff to certain readers, etc., but do you work on individual poems at individual times, or is it usually in a collection?
gluck332	LG: Everything I write goes out. I want someone to look at it, preferably right away—like, now.
gluck333	DB: And who are those people? Have they been the same people for a long time?
gluck334	LG: They change. I mean, it's certain periods, certain people. Sometimes, you'll feel these poems—if they're ever going to be understood by anyone—will be understood by X. And you're usually right—when X says, "This won't do," you trust it, because the person is basically on the side of the work. Whereas if you show it to somebody who, from the outset, says, "This is just a disaster"—you know, it's too late to unwrite it. It's going to get written, and you could suppress it if you wanted, but—so, it's shifted. I mean, there are certain people who have been constant for a very long time. Kathy Davis has been stratospherically helpful, and I like working on her novels. I learned a lot from working on prose.
gluck335	DB: What have you learned?
gluck336	LG: You learn moving around much bigger pieces. I mean, Kathy's books—it's not so much a question of that. But there have been books where I've felt, "There are too many characters—these two could be conflated." Other times, I felt things were in the wrong order, or that too much time was spent on a particular thing. But with my former husband—who was a quite terrific prose writer—it was often a question of really moving around blocks of prose, the way you would in a poem. You'd move a line in the poem, but in prose, you would move a paragraph, or two paragraphs. So I learned it's like weight training. I could move bigger masses, and it was very useful. I mean, I don't think I would have written Ararat without that. And I think if I hadn't written Ararat, I would have stalled out as a certain kind of lyric poet.
gluck337	DB: Right. I have some questions about why you chose not to use a computer.	1:43:05
gluck338	LG: Well, I'm epileptic and I learned, but I didn't like looking at the screen. The early computers, it was said, were not good for epileptics.
gluck339	DB: Okay.
gluck340	LG: I didn't like it. I liked paper. I liked pages. I love typewriters.
gluck341	DB: What do you love about typewriters?
gluck342	LG: Doesn't everyone love typewriters?
gluck343	DB: I don't know.
gluck344	LG: I don't know.
gluck345	DB: Is it a sound thing? Is it a feel thing?
gluck346	LG: No. Actually, since burning my hand, I don't type anywhere near as well, because I don't have perfect feeling in that finger. But it was a sense of how, sort of slovenly, handwriting became form. I don't get that on the screen. I don't see lines on the screen quite the same way, and I don't feel as though I'm making the letter. Well, often I'm not—I'm making the wrong letter. But I don't know why I like it.
gluck347	DB: But it has been such a consistent part of every book, I guess?
gluck348	LG: Yeah.
gluck349	DB: We get to skip all these computer questions—it's fun! So, you correspond with many people?
gluck350	LG: Yeah. Well, I used to be a much better letter writer.
gluck351	DB: Has that changed quite a bit, with receiving and sending out? Has that been computerized, or—?
gluck352	LG: Yeah, it has changed a little. But long before I had my little red friend, I had stopped writing letters the way I once did. I mean, there was a period in my life when—even like ten, twelve years ago—I just wrote lots of letters to lots of people, and I loved getting letters back, and I loved writing letters. And then that stopped. I don't know why it stopped. But it wasn't because of that. What I have noticed with this [iPad] is I have, now, a correspondence with my first husband, with whom I would exchange letters every two years or something—very formal letters. Then there was a period in which he needed somebody to confide in who was far away, and so we had a little period of much more intense exchange. Very short. I saw him and met his current wife. I saw him for the first time in thirty-eight years last summer, and we liked each other. I thought his wife was just great. It's helpful to kind of substitute for a phone call when you don't feel like making a phone call, and it gives people a chance that they would have with a letter but not a phone call to respond when they are ready to and not have a moment forced upon them in which they have to react. So I have very happy thoughts about this, it just has nothing to do with writing. And then, I think, it was a big moment when I switched from longhand to the typewriter. Maybe it would be equally transforming to switch to a computer. But not an iPad. I mean, I would need a real keyboard. But I can't use a mouse still. I can't. When I see that little thing, it makes me very skiddish and upset.	1:45:22
mcmichael1	Devin Becker: Yeah, so we'll go through these. Some of it is a little repetitive. It's looking to be a little bit more exhaustive than, I guess, organic. If you feel like we've covered anything in some of these, just say, "Let's go," it's fine.	0:00:00
mcmichael2	Let me know if you have any questions in the middle, or anything like that. It doesn't need to go straight through. We can take breaks, or whatever—that sort of thing.
mcmichael3	So, we've gotten kind of where we're at. I'm going to ask you kind of currently compose some of these on the computer, how you currently save, and how you kind of back it up and work with the files. Then, we'll move on to the process questions.
mcmichael4	First questions— and these are meant to be kind of short answer, basically—what genres do you work in as a writer?
mcmichael5	James McMichael: Only poetry
mcmichael6	DB: OK
mcmichael7	What kind of devices do you own or have access to for writing?
mcmichael8	JM: Just this machine
mcmichael9	DB: Just that computer, and what operating system do you use on it?
mcmichael10	JM: I don't know.
mcmichael11	DB: Is it a Windows computer?
mcmichael12	JM: I think so.
mcmichael13	DB: I'm pretty sure it is.
mcmichael14	JM: I know almost nothing about it
mcmichael15	DB: OK
mcmichael16	And you work on that device primarily, and that's where your files are stored as well?
mcmichael17	JM: My files are up here to the right. They're artist sketchbook, so they're unlined. And I take notes from the reading I do in those, and I also include (in green ink) my own responses to the things I'm reading, or things that occurred to me that might turn out to be germs for lines. So, I do that longhand.
mcmichael18	DB: Do they transfer—for those ideas, and those workings—on to the computer? And when they are, are they saved just on that computer?
mcmichael19	JM: In a selective way. Then, I'll go in to these notebooks and take stuff from them. And then in that form, develop some of what's there—add to it. So, that's part of the process, too.
mcmichael20	DB: Great!
mcmichael21	So, I guess just in terms of your computer files, do you have them like in a certain folder? Do you save them in certain kind of organizational fashion? Or are they just, once you transfer them in there, they're there and you don't worry about them?
mcmichael22	JM: They're there and I can find them alphabetically.
mcmichael23	DB: OK, OK
mcmichael24	So, are these files then primarily for your publishing sake, or...? I mean, do you...
mcmichael25	JM: Only for composition.
mcmichael26	DB: Only for composition?
mcmichael27	JM: Yeah, right
mcmichael28	DB: Do you print them out and revise them from the computer?
mcmichael29	JM: Sometimes.
mcmichael30	DB: Sometimes.
mcmichael31	What are your naming conventions for those files?
mcmichael32	JM: Usually the date.
mcmichael33	DB: The date.
mcmichael34	JM: Oh, I'm sorry—the date and the notebook. So, the notebooks are numbered. So, it'll be from Notebook 23, or something like that.
mcmichael35	DB: Oh, great!
mcmichael36	JM: So, that'll be that in addition to the date.
mcmichael37	DB: And if you went and revised one of the computer files, would you make a new file, or would you just like over what's already there?
mcmichael38	JM: I'd write over what's there, and then I would get probably a different number—you know, that document number.
mcmichael39	DB: Yeah, OK
mcmichael40	So, it'd be like my example here—"The Wasteland.1" and then "The Wasteland2". That kind of thing?
mcmichael41	JM: Yeah, that kind of thing.
mcmichael42	DB: OK
mcmichael43	Do you back-up those files, or do you just keep them on that computer? Do you put them on like a Dropbox, or anything like that? Or is it just on that computer?
mcmichael44	JM: On Wednesday, I'm told by our tech, that what's there gets backed up. So, Wednesday about 2:00AM, or something like that, and on Thursday at 2:00AM, some back-up takes place. So, that's all I know about it.
mcmichael45	DB: Like you don't have an external hard-drive, or some other box that you put them?
mcmichael46	JM: There's this blue thing down there—whatever that is.
mcmichael47	DB: Oh, yeah! That's it, that it.
mcmichael48	JM: That's it.
mcmichael49	DB: OK
mcmichael50	When you get to like a final draft, or something, is there another protocol for that sort of file, or...?
mcmichael51	JM: That file would have the title of the poem, and then the highest number of the draft of that poem would be the most current one—the one that's replaced the others.	(5:00)
mcmichael52	DB: OK, yeah, yeah
mcmichael53	And your tech--what's the relationship between you and your tech?
mcmichael54	JM: He's a genius. He's an expensive genius. His name is Steve Marinoff. We're entirely dependent on him—Susan and I for having these machines continue to work—and he's never failed us.
mcmichael55	DB: Good!
mcmichael56	And you guys like consult with him like when you get a new machine? Or... How does that relationship work?
mcmichael57	JM: If that happens or something goes wrong with one of these, but I'd say we see him maybe 3 or 4 times a year.
mcmichael58	DB: OK, and he just checks to make sure everything is working and backing up, and that sort of thing?
mcmichael59	JM: Right. We call him if we have a problem, and then we usually see him within a couple of days. He's wonderfully reliable.
mcmichael60	DB: How long has that relationship been going on?
mcmichael61	JM: I think like 8 year maybe, something like that. He had worked for another company, and now he's on his own.
mcmichael62	DB: Yeah, kind of his own consulting firm or something—great!
mcmichael63	DB: And did you seek him out, or did you know him? I mean...
mcmichael64	JM: Susan had him come out when he was working with the company that he worked for before he had his own business. Liked him a lot, and so...
mcmichael65	DB: Great, great!
mcmichael66	JM: His confidence inspiring. You know, we really count on—
mcmichael67	DB: That's the biggest thing!
mcmichael68	JM: We're very grateful for him
mcmichael69	DB: Yeah, yeah
mcmichael70	DB: OK, so that's the basic kind of just to get a sense of where you're at with your digital composition. Now we'll talk more about the process and the writing, and the notebooks, and the artist books, and stuff like that.
mcmichael71	DB: And then to start, I'd like to kind of know- how long would you say you've been writing professionally? I mean, in the sense that that writing has been what's kind of supported you in some way. I know the teaching, but I think that's kind of intertwined.	0:06:54
mcmichael72	JM: I published my first poem 53 years ago.
mcmichael73	DB: OK
mcmichael74	And could you give us kind of an overview of like the ark of your career—starting with maybe like your education, and then moving through?
mcmichael75	JM: I was an undergraduate at UC-Santa Barbara, and had some extraordinary teachers there. I learned how to read. Didn't learn how to write, but I learned how to read, I think, from them. Then I did my graduate work. Got a Ph.D. at Stanford immediately after I graduated from Santa Barbara.
mcmichael76	Was thru with the Ph.D. in 1965 at a time when white males got jobs in the Academy, so I took the job at Irvine and began teaching on the Fall of '65 there. Understood at that time that I had 6 years to complete a book that would get me tenure, and at that time, there weren't poets getting tenure by writing books of poems. So, it seemed as if what I needed to do was continue the critical, expository writing that I'd done as a Ph.D. student in English and American Literature. I wrote and published 4 essays out of my dissertation. They weren't exactly a book. I could've turned them in to a book but after about 2 years in the job, I started writing quite bad poems—and they continued to be bad poems until I'd completed a book of them. I submitted it for publication. It was accepted. It turned up in the mail. I sat down and read it, and it confirmed what I knew about it which was that it was a really bad book of poems.
mcmichael77	DB: And this is?
mcmichael78	JM: This was in 1971 that the book turned up—but it got me tenure!
mcmichael79	DB: This is the "Against the Falling Evil"?.
mcmichael80	JM: Against the Falling Evil
mcmichael81	DB: OK
mcmichael82	JM: Yeah
mcmichael83	DB: It had some good poems. It had the Vegetables
mcmichael84	JM: It had the Vegetables in it, and
mcmichael85	that was important to me in the sense that it gave me a standard that I wanted to live up to in anything else I kept after that. So then I had the great, good fortune of being able to have it take as long as it needed for me to write another book. I wrote the second book which I still like, and then I've gone off from there. With the kind of interruption in the writing of poetry, I finished 4 good things in the late '70s—it was published in 1980.	(10:00)
mcmichael86	And then I wrote a book on Ulysses. I needed to teach myself how to write a paragraph. I didn't know how to write a paragraph. I knew how to write a paragraph in graduate school prose, but not a paragraph. Those are different things, so that took quite a while. I didn't understand it—that's what I was doing at the time. I didn't understand that I didn't know what a paragraph was, but because I was meaning to be dealing with the content of what it was I was wanting to write about. It took about 4 years just to get that formal understanding in place about how to write a chapter of paragraphs.
mcmichael87	So, I worked on the Ulysses book uninterruptedly about 10 years, and then didn't go back to writing poems until it was finished. And so, I finished it about 1990, and then I'd been working on poems ever since then.
mcmichael88	DB: And since then, you've published 3 books?
mcmichael89	JM: I've published Each in a Place Apart, The World At-Large (which is New and Selected, and it's only about a tenth of that book is new), and then Capacity (which is published in 2006). And, I've just completed another book called If You Can Tell.
mcmichael90	DB: If You Can Tell. Do you know when that's coming up?
mcmichael91	JM: I'm guessing it'll be within the next 2 years
mcmichael92	DB: Great, great! That was good.
mcmichael93	DB: So, generally, I've kind of broken these questions in to 3 stages of the writing process - the compositional stage, the stage of revision, and the organizational/archival stage. That is my own kind of box for these things. If you think those do not fit your own personal writing style, we can kind of go through these in different ways. But if that sounds OK, then we can start. But, if anytime like, "Well, this doesn't make much sense," and you can go back and revise—because we talked about one thing in one section doesn't mean we can talk about that one thing.	0:12:50
mcmichael94	JM: I understand the 1st two of those—they seem perfectly clear, but what would the archival...?
mcmichael95	DB: I would say that would be once you've revised poems or critical writing (or probably books of poems) in to more of a final state, how do you deal with organizing your collection; how do you deal with the more minutiae of saving them and making sure they're together, and then sending them off—kind of more the business part of it.
mcmichael96	JM: I guess I asked because that's going on all the time in what I think of as the 1st two stages.
mcmichael97	DB: OK, so maybe we'll just address them in the 1st two stages, and it's not that...
mcmichael98	JM: Yeah
mcmichael99	DB: Maybe I have a couple of questions from that section but they won't be much.
mcmichael100	JM: I mean, this may just be parenthetical but, for me, since I tend to work in an extended (what can seem like) book length forms almost all the time, then any individual poem I'm working on has a necessary relationship to everything else I'm imagining. It's being with, and so that's part of what you're describing as archival—would have to be kind of in front of me all the time. So, that may be part of why it seems to me that it's—
mcmichael101	DB: No, that makes total sense to me.
mcmichael102	[That'll be
mcmichael103	(15:00) a good shot—just my neck]	[00:15:00]
mcmichael104	So, let's start with talking about kind of the compositional- the writing, the pre-writing, the generative parts. I know that reading has a quite a lot to do for you.
mcmichael105	JM: Yes
mcmichael106	DB: I'd like to start when you first started writing, and I guess part of this will be kind of tracking the changes in your process. So, like if there were certain ways you worked in the beginning, did those change, and then, did they change again?
mcmichael107	So, when you first started writing, would you kind of describe your typical compositional (pre-writing, drafting) practices? Yeah, when you first started writing... And when would this period be?
mcmichael108	JM: I guess the early 1960s, when I was still an undergraduate—I was writing. I mean, if the poems that I wrote before 1970 were bad, those poems were awful (they were worse), and there weren't many of them. Soon after I'd started writing poems, I was in a Ph.D. program. And even though I had a Stegner Fellowship for one of the years that I was there (which entailed taking writing workshops), the workshop wasn't anything like the workshops that you and I know in the sense that not much went on in them. There were maybe four people in the room—not much got said about them—and it was a very minor part of the four years that I spent getting a Ph.D. So, the bulk of that work was reading and writing essays, and having conversations with my wonderful peers that were there.
mcmichael109	So, I didn't have any reliable habits as a writer of poems—I don't think—until I was maybe two years in to the job at Irvine. So, I'd say 1967 or something like that.
mcmichael110	DB: Great!
mcmichael111	JM: And then, whatever it was I was doing wasn't working—and I think it wasn't working because what I was needing to do was convince myself that I knew how to write a poem. So, the substance of the work was completely inverted in terms of it being a working out of my need to prove something to myself that I couldn't prove. I couldn't prove it because what I was proving to myself was that I didn't know how to write a good poem. That went on for 3, 4 years, and I think there wasn't anything I could alter until I asked myself if there was something I needed to write about rather than just my own insecurities as someone who didn't know how to write a poem.
mcmichael112	DB: Then so, after you wrote that, or sort of started to ask yourself that question and you started to write the poems that you considered your good poems, in terms of the sort of minutiae of your writing process, did that mark a shift? Or was there always a sort of way that you approached the writing and that kind of gradually expanded? Or...
mcmichael113	JM: There had to have been a shift that since before writing the Vegetables (which is a poem about the impact on me of my mother's death when I was 11 years old). Prior to having that as matter to write about, I wouldn't have been able to identify a phrase that I came up with that was good enough (there's no other way to say it) to keep. I come up with phrases and I didn't have the acumen to be able to tell that this phrase was better, was	0:18:46
mcmichael114	(20:00) enough better than the accompanying phrases that it could supply me with an example of what I had to bring everything else up to. So, I was just putting stuff together, and there it was—it wasn't any good.	[00:20:00]
mcmichael115	After I wrote the Vegetables, I had a standard that I had to apply all the time. And once it was in place, then I had something to work with besides form (I had form, too, but I had form before when I was filling form with bad phrases). Then, I felt more equipped, to know what to keep and what not to keep.
mcmichael116	DB: So, how were you then able to generate those phrases? Like, how were you able to generate the phrase that then you could judge as being enough or not?
mcmichael117	JM: I guess by way (and this is where what I'd said earlier about working in extended forms)—the only way I knew how to generate it was to think really in book length terms. So, I'd have (in the case of my second book, The Lovers' Familiar I came up with something that's formal but also structural—The Canonical Hours. So, I thought... There were 8 of those - Midnight, 3:00AM, 6:00, all the way on to 9:00PM. If they would organize the book as a whole and have a medieval affect to them, faintly Catholic—if that was in place but it was not really a religious book, how might things go? There were going to be more than 8 poems in the book, but it turned out to be 15. What would come in where in relation to a 24-hour period? What might happen between noon and 3:00PM?
mcmichael118	So, I had that general scheme as something that could direct me toward, in one case, a portrait of an otter. You know, something along those lines. Then a lot of stuff in the course of working on the book (which I'm trying to remember how long—I think it took me 4 years to write it), a lot of stuff just fell away because it wasn't, again, good enough.
mcmichael119	DB: And in terms of simply... Were you drafting by hand, or...?	0:23:15
mcmichael120	JM: By hand—all of it by hand
mcmichael121	DB: All of it by hand
mcmichael122	JM: And then I would... The process through all of the books until this most recent one was all long-hand and then typewriter. I loved typing successive drafts because typing is so much easier than composing, so, it was a break. It was just, "Oh, boy! I get to..."
mcmichael123	So, I never minded typing, and I suspected that I would miss it on this machine. I didn't miss it. It turned out, since I'm typing all the time--I'm composing from the beginning and I'm redoing everything—I liked this. I can't imagine how it was possible to write a book of prose (to write the Ulysses book) long-hand with a typewriter. I mean, I just can't. It would have been so much easier if I'd had some facility with the computer to write that.
mcmichael124	DB: Yeah, yeah
mcmichael125	So, essentially though, all of your books except this last one have followed the similar process of—
mcmichael126	JM: Yes
mcmichael127	DB: Could you kind of detail that in kind of like step-by-step process?	0:24:45
mcmichael128	JM: Yeah
mcmichael129	On a good day ... I mean I have to work every day usually in the morning, sometimes as early as 4:00. I didn't mean to get up at that time but I was awake at that time—I was wide awake at that time and I'd go to work right away. I'd go back over what I'd had up to that point in a poem and I'd find stuff that had to be revised. So, I'd do revision.	[00:25:00]
mcmichael130	Sometimes that would be all I would do on a given day, and then something that I hadn't yet gotten to would suggest itself, and I'd have a phrase or a sentence. That's what I mean when I use the word compose—Something I hadn't had yet, there's at least a possibility that I might have and it would sound maybe something like this, maybe one more of the words would actually survive. So then I'd nudge it along a little more and on a good day, if I had a line and a half, or two lines, that would be a pretty good day. And that could take 4 hours.
mcmichael131	DB: And in doing that, in kind of getting to that point, is that all done on loose notebook paper?
mcmichael132	JM: On long-hand.
mcmichael133	DB: Long-hand.
mcmichael134	JM: What did I work...? I think I just worked by 8x11 sheets of paper. I remember at one point they were yellow—and then they were white!
mcmichael135	DB: It didn't matter.
mcmichael136	JM: It didn't matter.
mcmichael137	DB: Yeah
mcmichael138	So, what would one of those pieces of paper look like?
mcmichael139	JM: A lot of crossing out, rehearsing what I had already that needed to be there to remind me of what seemed as if it had made the cut with me as something that could be kept, and then something new would join it for a while but it wouldn't really be good enough. And then, it would have to be revised. Pretty soon, it would be better enough maybe to stay, and then when I'd get (I don't know what) 8 or 9 lines more, then I'd go to the typed copy of what I'd transcribed from long-hand on to typed copy and add what was new, make what changes I'd made in long-hand, and then just bring all of that along with me.
mcmichael140	When I was writing my third book, Four Good Things, that entailed thousands of lines in untitled sections. There's 16 sections of it of varying lengths, and I'd do it section by section. It was pretty much chronological, but some of the sections were 16, 17 pages long, so I'd go through the whole process for that particular section. You know, if I were typing up what I'd recently added 4 or 5 lines to, I'd probably type the whole thing again.
mcmichael141	DB: So, you were generating lines long-hand—working on those. And then as they got to the level where you though they could enter in to the poem, you would then retype the entire poem or section, and go from there?
mcmichael142	JM: Yes, yeah
mcmichael143	And never minded that activity—never minded it.
mcmichael144	DB: Did you find that in typing that, were you actively making changes at that time, or not so much?
mcmichael145	JM: Not so much.
mcmichael146	DB: OK
mcmichael147	And then once you had that object, would you go back and read it to yourself, or read it out loud?
mcmichael148	JM: Yes, yeah
mcmichael149	DB: And then you would start the revision process on that type-written document?
mcmichael150	JM: I'd wait 'til the next day. It would, more often than not, not look so good the next day.
mcmichael151	DB: Yes, yes
mcmichael152	So, would you save these sheets of paper on which you were long-hand composing?
mcmichael153	Not with any fondness. I mean, they were only (30:00) for my uses—it was not anything I wanted to preserve in anyway. I didn't care about anything other than finishing the poem and having it done. That was all that mattered to me.	[00:30:00]
mcmichael154	DB: OK
mcmichael155	JM: And I didn't often find myself in situations in which lines that I'd deleted I later missed and wished I had copies of them to see if I could... I mean, that happened a few times but it was so rare that I don't think it influenced my ways of going at the whole process. I didn't ever regret throwing stuff away.
mcmichael156	DB: Right
mcmichael157	I guess we can kind of maybe talk in about how... I mean, we're already talking about the revision process for these poems, and it seems like... I sort of asked the other writers like what is your sort of primary revision or textual changes, and it seems sort of subtractive. Like you would find something that you didn't like, and would you try to substitute something in for that?	0:30:50
mcmichael158	JM: If I could find it.
mcmichael159	DB: If you could find it.
mcmichael160	JM: And if I couldn't, then it probably needed to disappear.
mcmichael161	DB: Just that part, or...?
mcmichael162	JM: Just that part.
mcmichael163	DB: OK, but once you kind of had a structure of a general poem, though, it usually stayed?
mcmichael164	JM: By the time I got to the end of it, it did. I mean, I work on them almost only cumulatively so that I take them along line by line. I don't...I'm not able to write a draft of something. The only variation on that is that I'll sometimes get the ending--it'll present itself to me—I mean the phrases. And I'll have that as a kind of telos for where I'm headed—not all the time, but I'd say half the time that happens somewhat in advance of my getting even within the couple of pages of the ending itself. It'll occur to me, and it won't tell me what is missing. It won't do that. It'll be just something that I feel would provide the kind of closure that I think would work.
mcmichael165	DB: So, essentially, you are writing (I don't know if you can) chronologically or...?
mcmichael166	JM: It is chronologically.
mcmichael167	DB: OK, so, as you build it and build it and build it, the revision process and the composition process are all happening at the same time?	0:34:22
mcmichael168	JM: Yep, yep
mcmichael169	DB: And that's happening in concert with the other poems in the book, or are you usually focused on one until it's done and then you move on?
mcmichael170	JM: I'm focused on one, but I have a pretty good sense of where it might go, organizationally, in relation to the others except right at the beginning of the project. At that point, I'm not clear on what's missing. I'm working toward beginning to understand what the whole might contain, but I just have to wait until... I mean, if I think of the last two books - there are 6 poems in capacity and 8 poems here (8 poems in the most recent one), and in both cases that's a small enough number that I'm not sure where in the process of writing either of those books (whether it took me 3 or 4 poems) to have a sense of what else I needed, but it was somewhere in there. Kind of midway, then I'd be a little clearer.
mcmichael171	DB: Can you talk a little bit about what that point is in the beginning of the project? Like how that... Is there something starting to emerge in your thinking, in your reading, or...? Where does that come from?
mcmichael172	JM: Again, I have to learn what it's possible to learn about the first and the second poem that I write in any of the projects. If I think about this most recent book, I was commissioned by the New York Times to write a Thanksgiving poem. I mean, that was the first poem that I wrote for this most recent book, and I wrote it. I kept taking my notes on all of the things that I was reading, and was caught up in the reading and the note-taking and all of that. All of it was to the end of my getting started on my second poem and I had no ideas what that was for 2 years, and then that poem came out of Proverbs. Then I spent another year and a half before I had any lines at all on a third poem. I looked back over a 4-1/2 to 5 year period in which I had written two poems (neither of them particularly long—the longer of the two was 4 pages). That was all I had. I didn't have a page a year, essentially.
mcmichael173	And for the life of me, I don't understand why I didn't just accept that I was thru writing. I mean, that should have been enough, but that wasn't what I felt –I don't know why, but I didn't. Then, I guess, I'd taught myself enough about what I was trying to learn in the whole project that it got underway, and then there was a momentum to it that I don't really remember in any of the other books that I wrote. There was kind of a momentum in writing Four Good Things but it was a momentum that I would describe as documentary even though there was an autobiographical element to it. It was as if I could hear some kind of narrator in a documentary saying this thing, or that. And the form of the thing was usually more than a 10-syllable line in this monolithic block that looked kind of like prose but still had a jamb, and it was lines.
mcmichael174	So, that gave me kind of momentum but very different from what the lack of momentum that I had when I began this book—there just wasn't any. I don't know where it was going to come from.
mcmichael175	DB: I guess, in those... You said you were kind of teaching yourself to get to the point where you can get that momentum back and start writing more. What are those parts of your life look like in terms of your writing, your practice? I mean, are you still waking up and working?
mcmichael176	JM: Yeah
mcmichael177	DB: I mean, in your writing and in your reading, taking notes...
mcmichael178	JM: All the time.
mcmichael179	DB: Can you describe how that works, how that part of your practice works? And that's been pretty steady since the beginning, or since you start writing for the second book?	0:37:59
mcmichael180	JM: Yes, all the way back, and I think the reading and the note-taking part of it has gotten to be more dominant over the course of the time. These notebooks...[points to bookshelves full of notebooks] And there are probably about 10 others and the ones that fit in that shelf right there—that's about 4 years of worth. Prior to those, I was working with 5x8 cards, writing in long-hand. That just got too hard to keep track of (I had boxes of them and arranged alphabetically), but this is an improvement on that. It's more... It's something I could find and I'd index these so I could find my way around these books. In a way, the cards—they just got too many of them.
mcmichael181	DB: So, the cards, you had them in just like regular card... Would you flip through them like a card catalog kind of, or...?
mcmichael182	JM: Except I wouldn't flip through them, that's the thing. They didn't invite me back to them the way these [notebooks] do. I can take one of these down at random and be reminded pretty quickly of why it was that particular book that I was reading and why I was having the responses to it that I did.
mcmichael183	(40:00)	[00:40:00]
mcmichael184	DB: Do you mind grabbing one of those and just kind of showing how you would do that?
mcmichael185	JM: No
mcmichael186	DB: [Hopefully, we'll get it in the frame.]
mcmichael187	JM: Let's see if I can find some pages here where I've gone—
mcmichael188	DB: Or I can take pictures of these, if you don't mind.
mcmichael189	JM: Not at all.
mcmichael190	I work on... These are the notes that I would take for the book that I'm reading. The RED is the more important material. It's something that, if I'm going through it I can read and just pick out the highlighted parts, then GREEN are my own responses. So, I'm always working on the right hand page when I'm taking notes from books I'm reading, then when I'm going back over the material, I'll work on this page and there'll be other changes. Usually more GREEN will turn up.
mcmichael191	DB: OK
mcmichael192	And that's your response to it. OK, I got it. So, how do you index them?
mcmichael193	JM: Just by title and... Let's see. I've got some of those pages here.
mcmichael194	DB: OK
mcmichael195	And indexed by title of work that you're reading?
mcmichael196	JM: Now, where did they go? See, I should know where they are, Devin ... But I had the sheets.
mcmichael197	Ha, ha, ha, I can't find them now. They were usually in this red notebook. So, they're pages of an index that are arranged according to notebook numbers. They're here. Susan just rearranged them. They're somewhere in here, they're not lost.
mcmichael198	DB: OK, good
mcmichael199	JM: I hope so.
mcmichael200	So, then I just find my way to the notebook and it'll have the page numbers and everything. Oh, and then in the front of each notebook, I have the title and the page numbers.
mcmichael201	DB: Oh, OK. So you know you can go back and find the work you're thinking about for whatever you are doing.
mcmichael202	JM: Right
mcmichael203	DB: OK
mcmichael204	That's fascinating.
mcmichael205	OK, just to remind me then...
mcmichael206	JM: [You're very patient.]
mcmichael207	DB: [No, no. I like dogs. He's a good guy. I have a new appreciation for dogs, too. It's our first dog, so...]
mcmichael208	JM: [Would she be smelling Rufus on you?]
mcmichael209	DB: [I don't know. Maybe? Maybe on these jeans.]
mcmichael210	JM: [Yeah]
mcmichael211	DB: [I'm admitting my jeans are not super clean!]
mcmichael212	So, the index cards—were they cards that you were working—?
mcmichael213	JM: They were cards.
mcmichael214	DB: OK, and that's what...
mcmichael215	JM: Shall I... I think... I don't know if I have them. She may have moved those.
mcmichael216	She moved them somewhere. I don't know where they've gone.
mcmichael217	DB: Well, we can find them and take pictures later.
mcmichael218	JM: OK
mcmichael219	Michelle [Latiolais] wanted one. I gave her one. She framed it.
mcmichael220	DB: Oh, that's awesome!
mcmichael221	So, and all that note-taking... Say... I mean, is there like a hypothetical where you could say like, "I used my index to find something and that led to a line or..."? How would that... I guess, what is that process like?
mcmichael222	JM: That is the way it tends to work and yet I can't go back once I've got the line unless I'm quoting.
mcmichael223	DB: Right
mcmichael224	JM: I can't make a connection. There's just some kind of break—something gets suggested and I can never reconstruct it.
mcmichael225	DB: OK, wow!
mcmichael226	JM: Another way to say it is that I think the(45:00) reading...it feels like the reading does this to me. Like it just pulls me out towards stuff that other people, the writers of the books I'm taking notes on, are more connected to than I am but they do a good enough job of saying what their connections to it are that the things I'm reading become suggestive to me of things that I didn't know that they make available. And then that gives me a sense that there's less I've failed to address, and therefore maybe I've been brought to a position (with their help) of being able to find a phrase that lets me move from this point, in where I am with the poem I'm writing, further along.	[00:45:00]
mcmichael227	DB: How do you choose the books that you're reading?
mcmichael228	JM: The disciplines that I've gone back to more and more than any others are philosophy, theology, history, psychology, sociology, anthropology. And one or other of those will seem like it's more pertinent, depending on where I am, in the process
mcmichael229	So, I'm on Amazon a lot, truck stops in front of the house fairly frequently, and I'm helped enormously by the succession of books that turn up at the door that I have the time to indulge myself with.
mcmichael230	DB: Great!
mcmichael231	So, you mentioned Amazon. Are you using the recommendations that Amazon provides you, or are you finding a book from another book?
mcmichael232	JM: I'm usually finding a book from another book. They do send me the monthly things--"Here's my list," and I go through it but I'm usually ahead of them.
mcmichael233	DB: OK, that's good.
mcmichael234	Most people are not ahead of them ...
mcmichael235	JM: But they're not bad at it.
mcmichael236	DB: Oh, no. They've got pretty powerful algorithms.
mcmichael237	JM: It's their job.
mcmichael238	DB: Yes, it's what they do
mcmichael239	So, going back, you said... Then, so every book except this last book was composed in long-hand and on a typewriter.
mcmichael240	JM: Yes
mcmichael241	DB: What's the change then for this final—the last book here?
mcmichael242	JM: There was, as I said before, a surprise that I wasn't at all missing the typing—the typing stage probably because it was all typing. So, it was as if... That's what's happened with this machine—was the long-hand and the typing just coalesced and because the same activity. I don't feel that it made any of it any quicker. I mean, it probably did, but that wasn't the sense I had of it. It was less cumbersome because it's sitting here and I put it over here, and all that. But it seemed like it was very easy transition—I don't miss the typewriter, which I loved, you know? But I don't miss it—I think it's in my storage space about 2 miles away from here.	0:48:00
mcmichael243	So, it couldn't have been an easier shift from that technology to this one, I don't think.
mcmichael244	DB: Just to clarify for myself—are you still doing the long-hand composition, or is all of that work now happening on the computer?
mcmichael245	JM: It's all happening here [on the computer] except when I don't take the computer with me, say, to Idaho then I will (50:00) work in long-hand. So, I'll print out whatever it is of whatever I have working on and I take that printed copy with me. Then, I'll just work long-hand with it, leaving the computer here. Then, I'll be back in 3 weeks, or something like that, and then re-incorporate it into what I've got here in my files.	[00:50:00]
mcmichael246	DB: OK	0:50:13
mcmichael247	One thing, I guess, I might... So, in the composition stage, do you still do like strikethroughs in that?
mcmichael248	JM: Yeah. I work pretty much the way I've worked before.
mcmichael249	DB: You just transferred those processes on the computer?
mcmichael250	JM: Yes
mcmichael251	DB: Did it take some time to figure how to do that--?
mcmichael252	JM: No
mcmichael253	DB: --or was it fairly intuitive?
mcmichael254	JM: Yeah
mcmichael255	And I guess... I mean.... Then another aspect of it is letters that I write here. So, I'm doing whatever revision I do of the emails I send right here on this. In that way, this makes it a little more personal. I can't remember how it was like to write a letter to somebody. It wasn't one of these, and I understand that letters you post aren't any more invasive than something you send here [on the computer]. But I love how non-invasive this [the computer] is as a medium—not so much in terms of my being protected against being invaded by somebody else, but being able to say something (send somebody something here [on the computer]) and understand that they can open it when they want, and that it's not an imposition on them.
mcmichael256	DB: So explain that a little bit. The non-invasive part—do you feel like the letter was a more invasive...?
mcmichael257	JM: No, I think it'd probably wasn't but it took more trouble to write it, and post it, and 32 cents, or whatever it costs (whatever a letter cost to send before I started doing this). Then I have a friend who's a lifer. He doesn't have a computer, so, it's with Robby that I correspond by snail mail.
mcmichael258	DB: Yeah
mcmichael259	And do those feel different now? I mean, is it sort of a more difficult to get up, to write that letter?
mcmichael260	JM: Yes. Yes, it is. And I wind up writing it here and printing it out, and signing it, and putting it in the mail. Then his letters to me are all in long-hand.
mcmichael261	DB: I guess, in keeping with this latest work, when you went back to revise the poems, that was a fairly similar process, too?
mcmichael262	JM: I think it was exactly.
mcmichael263	DB: Exactly the same?
mcmichael264	JM: Yeah
mcmichael265	DB: OK
mcmichael266	DB: And then kind of a general question about your revision process, and this is one that I kind of... And this is a little bit repetitive. So, are the revisions driven by sound, by meaning, by theme, by structure? Are these all kind of intertwining?	0:52:45
mcmichael267	JM: I think they are.
mcmichael268	DB: OK
mcmichael269	JM: You know, it has to be—it just has to be. What can your ear bear here? And if it can bear it, is it saying what it has to be saying?
mcmichael270	DB: So, that's kind of step 1 and step 2 for your revisions?
mcmichael271	JM: Yeah, and they're probably inseparable.
mcmichael272	DB: Right, right
mcmichael273	Do other people play a process in your revisions or in your working?
mcmichael274	JM: Yes, they do.
mcmichael275	DB: OK, how so?
mcmichael276	JM: I'll send then drafts and get responses from them that are almost always helpful. And they're helpful in terms less of my being able to meet what they might have preferred to having what they've said to me help me prefer what happens once I make the revisions.
mcmichael277	DB: OK, and have those people stayed the same throughout your career, or they've changed somewhat?
mcmichael278	JM: They've... Yeah, there've been a couple who are new in the last 4 or 5 years on this most recent books—colleagues.
mcmichael279	DB: And how will that process work? Will you now email them a section whereas before you might send them a letter with the section, or...?
mcmichael280	JM: Yeah, it's easier. This makes it a lot easier to do and (55:00) then, of course, I get work from other people in this form, too, and I like that. I've liked it... I mean, I haven't taught now for a year and a half, but I've really liked the way the computer makes it possible to re-lineate poems that I've gotten from students—just to give them a sense of how I hear what they're doing with the lines. It's been a help. It's been a help to me. I haven't seen much evidence that it means anything at all to them.	[00:55:00]
mcmichael281	DB: No, I can tell you from experience. It's a lesson--it's a valuable lesson.
mcmichael282	JM: Oh, good
mcmichael283	DB: Definitely!
mcmichael284	JM: Well, you may be the only one.
mcmichael285	DB: Sometimes it's difficult in the lessons learned but definitely valuable.
mcmichael286	[OK, let me look at this for one second. Do you want to take a break by any chance?]
mcmichael287	JM: [I'm fine. Now you want to take a break!]
mcmichael288	DB: [She's tired of these questions]
mcmichael289	DB: So, how did you keep track of all these things? I mean, I guess, with the computer if fairly... You have one file with all of them in it?	0:56:19
mcmichael290	JM: Yes
mcmichael291	DB: And before that, did you just have them in a binder, or...?
mcmichael292	JM: Just loose pages probably.
mcmichael293	DB: Just loose pages.
mcmichael294	JM: With a clip probably.
mcmichael295	DB: OK, and with that... As you got the manuscript more towards where you wanted, that would just grow bigger and bigger?
mcmichael296	JM: Yeah
mcmichael297	DB: So, it's a fairly easy way to do that.
mcmichael298	JM: Yeah
mcmichael299	DB: So it wasn't like some of the other writers, like they have these special notebooks; they have kind of like a process where they move from notebook to this, to this? That wasn't...?
mcmichael300	JM: No
mcmichael301	DB: That part of the writing was never that...?
mcmichael302	JM: No
mcmichael303	DB: And those files and that sort of ephemera, it's never....It doesn't seem that it was that dear to you?	0:57:25
mcmichael304	JM: No
mcmichael305	DB: And it's still not?
mcmichael306	JM: No
mcmichael307	DB: OK
mcmichael308	Do you know... Have you ever thought why?
mcmichael309	JM: All I care about is the product--that's all I care about.
mcmichael310	DB: And when do you... What do you consider the product?
mcmichael311	JM: The poem that I can't make any better.
mcmichael312	DB: OK
mcmichael313	Do you... I guess, in the same way in the computer? How do you feel about computer files? Do you try to... Do you have much sort of sense of trying to maintain them and keep them, or are they just sort of means to getting it to that point?
mcmichael314	JM: They're the Work In Progress. At the most recent stage, if I'm going to get on an airplane I'll send what I've got on the book as a whole to a couple of people. They'll understand why I did it. So, that would be one of the later things that I would do before I got on the car to take us to the airport.
mcmichael315	DB: OK, yeah
mcmichael316	JM: It's egomaniacal, you know, in its way.
mcmichael317	DB: Yeah
mcmichael318	But, I mean, it's also your work.
mcmichael319	JM: It's my work.
mcmichael320	DB: Yeah
mcmichael321	So, the product (the poem)—where does it exist? Is it in the book? Is it in the printed out page? I mean, I know you're very strong proponent of the aural poem... I guess that's sort of a larger question, but where is it?
mcmichael322	JM: I guess it's in the book.
mcmichael323	DB: It's in the book?
mcmichael324	JM: Yeah
mcmichael325	DB: OK
mcmichael326	JM: And I would want form, which in my case is the line and the stanza, to instruct a reader of that book on how I hear the phrases and the sentences.
mcmichael327	DB: Right, right
mcmichael328	Do you ever record yourself doing this? Have you ever like recorded yourself reading a book, or has anybody ever asked you to do that?
mcmichael329	JM: I did read... Somebody recorded All of Capacity. Matt Nelson did it. Some years ago, I was asked to do some for one of those New York poetry societies, or... I can't remember what the others are, but I did. I have recorded some things. I've liked doing it, but it's only been when somebody's asked me for a recording.
mcmichael330	(1:00:00)	[01:00:00]
mcmichael331	DB: I think that would be a valuable thing.
mcmichael332	[Let me just look through these. I think, we've gone... We've actually organically answered some of these questions I have, so that's nice.]
mcmichael333	DB: This is a little off, but has the internet changed the way that you do any of this process? Has the kind of availability of all these extra information allowed you to maybe find books, or find ideas and research online in a way that changed anything for your writing?	1:00:22
mcmichael334	JM: I'm so bad at this that Amazon has like been the only resource that I've been helped by. I'm sure there's lots else there, but it hasn't served me. I'll google some things but not much.
mcmichael335	DB: Not much
mcmichael336	Do you... I mean, why do you feel like you're bad at it, I guess, is a question. Is it something... But it's something that... I mean, is it something that you feel like kind of naturally, inherently, bad at, or...?
mcmichael337	JM: Yes, I feel naturally, inherently bad at it.
mcmichael338	DB: And at the times that you have sort of attempted to teach yourself, it's just not something that come naturally, and not something that you've needed?
mcmichael339	JM: I think, yeah. I think if I had needed it more I'd probably would've availed myself of it more and taught myself how to do it. I guess, yeah—I haven't felt the need of it.
mcmichael340	DB: Yeah, yeah
mcmichael341	Again, where do your files and folders kind of reside on your computer? Are they... Do you have like a folder for that book with all the drafts, or is it just one document?
mcmichael342	JM: Just one document.
mcmichael343	DB: Just one document.
mcmichael344	JM: Just the most recent.
mcmichael345	DB: OK, and that's how it works for almost everything?
mcmichael346	JM: Yes
mcmichael347	DB: OK
mcmichael348	JM: And I think that would be related to what you probably remember—if I'm seeing students revisions, I'm interested in the one that they feel is the strongest, and I'm not going to compare it to earlier things. I wouldn't want... I want them to be making that call, and that's what I want them to hear from me back about.
mcmichael349	DB: Right, right
mcmichael350	DB: How do you... I mean, you've sort of spoken about this in describing your earlier practices. How did you get that acumen in sort of being able to tell? I mean, it's just...	1:01:51
mcmichael351	JM: I don't know. Just listening to a lot of great, great music, I think. I mean, that would make more sense to me than anything else.
mcmichael352	DB: Hmm...
mcmichael353	OK, and what was the... Is there a progression of music that you listen to ever?
mcmichael354	JM: Yes, yes
mcmichael355	DB: Can you talk a little bit about that?
mcmichael356	JM: I think I was helped immeasurably by what I listened to when I was 12 and 13 just in a really bad way, and that was first jazz from the early '50s that got to be more and more exclusively black jazz, or black musicians. And that got me through high school, and then I had other things to do once I went to college. It kind of was suspended pretty much all the way through my undergraduate work, and my graduate work, then it came back once I had the job here.
mcmichael357	So, in the late '60s, it was the popular music—rock mostly—and The Stones and Hendrix were kind of at the top of that list. Then Hendrix was dead and The Stones weren't what they had been. At that point, I had a need for music that got to me, and there wasn't any more of it coming from jazz or rock, so then I started learning classical, learning the literature of
mcmichael358	(1:05:00) classical music, and it's had hold of me since November of 1973. You know, I feel that it's trained my ear to be what it is. I don't know how it's done that but it's been elemental to me.	[01:05:00]
mcmichael359	DB: Did you take any formal education?
mcmichael360	JM: No, no
mcmichael361	DB: Just listening?
mcmichael362	JM: I just listened.
mcmichael363	DB: And where would you find... How would you find new things? What was your progress there?
mcmichael364	JM: From composers and from artists both. So, going at it both ways
mcmichael365	DB: Yeah
mcmichael366	Have there been particular composers, or artists, at times that you listen to more? I mean like is there... Does it move forward, or...?
mcmichael367	JM: It's been Mahler and Beethoven at the top, and then Brahms and Bach. Loads of others but Mahler and Beethoven most of all.
mcmichael368	DB: I mean, you based one of your stanzaic forms on the... Who was it? Was it—	1:06:10
mcmichael369	JM: Well, Schoenberg, whom I'm not that crazy about but the 12-tone system suggested to me a stanzaic progression in which if I've got (as I had in the two most recent books) 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 line stanzas—the 12-tone system in which he would not come back to a note until he had used the other eleven [on the] scale suggested to me a form in which I would not interrupt the progression of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 until I'd exhausted all of those five. And then I would begin the next sequence with another number and try to have that second sequence be as varied from the first as I could be, and then continue that all the way through.
mcmichael370	That's not to say that I wouldn't wind up having a 3, 2, 1, 4, 5 sequence somewhere else in the poem, but I'd want it to be removed by several other sequences.
mcmichael371	DB: Right
mcmichael372	JM: So, variety is one of the models but that was the form.
mcmichael373	DB: And how did you... Did you pick that up by listening, or was that from a reading? I mean, are you reading about this as well, or...?
mcmichael374	JM: No. I mean, I just knew what the 12-tone system was and knew no more about it than that.
mcmichael375	DB: OK, but it—
mcmichael376	JM: It's just in one sentence thing. So that suggested itself to me. I began it with a poem I wrote about Greenland called "T"he World At Large." There, I was working with 1, 2, 3, and 4—I stopped at 4 there. And then the next time, I was in to Capacity. In that book, I added a 5-line stanza.
mcmichael377	DB: Capacious stanza.
mcmichael378	JM: It was more capacious.
mcmichael379	DB: Great!
mcmichael380	JM: I would say, too, that when I think back about moving from the late '60s when I was writing poems I didn't like, weren't very good, into the early '70s, I think there's a non-accidental relationship between the forms I was working with having been as short as a 3-minute take and a sonata form, or a scherzo trio form, or an adagio, or something like that that the lengths of it (the units I was working on ) got larger when I was listening to pieces of music that were 8-9 minutes to ½ an hour long.	1:08:35
mcmichael381	DB: Right, that makes a lot of sense.
mcmichael382	And you're listening to this classical piece. Was it a very active listening? I mean, is it usually like you're alone with the music? Is it a head-... Do you listen to it on
mcmichael383	(01:10:00) headphones?	[01:10:00]
mcmichael384	JM: Both
mcmichael385	DB: Both
mcmichael386	JM: A lot of it. You know, I spend a lot of time with it.
mcmichael387	DB: Yeah, and are you ever writing while that's on?
mcmichael388	JM: No
mcmichael389	DB: You give the attention to the music?
mcmichael390	JM: Yeah
mcmichael391	DB: OK, and that's still a part of your process now?
mcmichael392	JM: Yeah
mcmichael393	DB: That's fascinating!
mcmichael394	DB: OK, I have a little bit, a few more questions—a little bit on teaching—and then just kind of the blunt ending questions.	1:10:32
mcmichael395	You just speak about this with the computer kind of changing your relationship with your students. You can kind of rely in their poems to show them how you hear them. Is there any other ways that you've seen this computer sort of age adjusting, or affecting, your teaching and working with students?
mcmichael396	JM: I don't think so. It's made it all more efficient in terms of not having to go to the mailbox to get the copies, but to just come here and here's their poems. I like that. I think they like it, too.
mcmichael397	DB: Right, right
mcmichael398	Do you see, in your later students, that there's like an increased technological or cultural understanding that affected their work, or...?
mcmichael399	JM: No
mcmichael400	DB: [inaudible 01:11:26]
mcmichael401	That's fine with me.
mcmichael402	JM: I mean, except that I think there's a probably a proclivity for exotic words that they trust Google will help you with. I think that's happened.
mcmichael403	DB: Yeah, yeah
mcmichael404	JM: I don't... That's not necessarily a gain, but it's not terrible either.
mcmichael405	DB: Yeah, yeah. No, that's not bad.
mcmichael406	So, I guess, I just have like the kind of blunt questions. I mean, this sort of the frame of my thing (of my study) is - what changes happened with this rise of personal computer. I mean, for you, it seems like maybe not that many. Do you have any opinions on kind of how...? Is there a change in feel, change in structure, or...?
mcmichael407	JM: I like what's personal about this medium in that way that I've described already. I like the contact this machine gives me with people. I feel it's certainly more immediate. I think it's increased the contact that I have with people who are spread around the world. It's been more important to me since I don't go in to school and run in to people that I have conversations with. And I like the fact that it's this keyboard that connects me with them, and this keyboard that connects me with strangers who might read my poems. I like that about this—a lot. I like it a lot. I like it all the more now that when the phone rings, 90% of the time (even though I've asked not to be called by telemarketers) it's telemarketers.
mcmichael408	DB: Yeah, because most of your conversations that are important now are on the computer.
mcmichael409	JM: Yeah
mcmichael410	DB: And then, I guess, has that changed the poems? Has that--?
mcmichael411	JM: I don't think so.
mcmichael412	DB: No, OK
mcmichael413	JM: But I can't know that. I mean, it might well have.
mcmichael414	DB: I mean, it's interesting to me. I guess just thinking of the Ulysses class, and just like thinking about that connection with people with being so integral to thinking about that book and about what you were talking about. And I wanted—
mcmichael415	JM: My favorite class, ever.
mcmichael416	DB: That was a great class.
mcmichael417	JM: I mean, just by miles and miles.
mcmichael418	DB: Good, good. I'm glad I was in it.
mcmichael419	JM: I'm glad you were, too.
mcmichael420	DB: I think... I guess... But I mentioned... I mean, it is in a sense a very good democratic object—
mcmichael421	JM: It is.
mcmichael422	DB: --and I guess I can see your relationship to it in that way. And I guess, it would be left for others to comment how that may have broached this.
mcmichael423	OK, well thank you very much, Jim.
mcmichael424	JM: Oh, it's been so good.
mcmichael425	DB: That's great!
mcmichael426	JM: You're so good at this. You really are.
mohammad1	Devin Becker: Thank you very much for agreeing to do this, Kasey.
mohammad2	Kasey Mohammad: My pleasure. Thanks for coming.
mohammad3	DB: Would you please state, for the camera, your name, your date of birth, and the location we're at right now?
mohammad4	KM: Kasey Silem Mohammad. October 10, 1962. We're at Southern Oregon University in Central Hall.
mohammad5	DB: So, the first section is kind of short-answer. It's meant to get a sense of your digital practices now. So, we'll just kind of go through this and we'll talk more about the composition. So, what genres do you work in?
mohammad6	KM: Poetry.
mohammad7	DB: OK, and that's your primary genre?
mohammad8	KM: Yeah.
mohammad9	DB: What kinds of devices do you own, or have access to for writing?
mohammad10	KM: This laptop, a MacBook. I mean, that's about it, other than whatever scratchpad I might put a note or idea in.
mohammad11	DB: So you use only that one? Do you write on a phone? Do you write on any other things?
mohammad12	KM: Usually not. I mean, the laptop is the main instrument.
mohammad13	DB: The laptop is the main instrument.
mohammad14	KM: Yeah.
mohammad15	DB: And you have an Apple.
mohammad16	KM: Mhmm.
mohammad17	DB: You said you use some note paper sometimes?
mohammad18	KM: I mean, if I'm somewhere and all I have is a piece of scratch paper because I'm in a meeting and I get an idea. But I don't really do that often.
mohammad19	DB: OK, so it's pretty primarily on that computer?
mohammad20	KM: That is mostly it.
mohammad21	DB: OK. Do you ever make pre-writing notes for it, or—?
mohammad22	KM: Because of the kind of writing I do, that usually doesn't come in to play.
mohammad23	DB: Yeah.
mohammad24	KM: Which I think will become clearer when we talk about the actual composition.
mohammad25	DB: OK. In what format do you save your digital files?
mohammad26	KM: Word.
mohammad27	DB: Word doc.
mohammad28	KM: Mhmm.
mohammad29	DB: Do you save individual works as you go along, or do you simply save over what you've written? Do you save drafts?
mohammad30	KM: Oh, no. I don't. I probably should, but I almost never save drafts. I just open up a doc and write over it until I think it's finished.
mohammad31	DB: OK. And what are your naming conventions for your files?
mohammad32	KM: Usually the name of the poem, followed by the file name.
mohammad33	DB: And so, because you don't use drafts, it's just the one?
mohammad34	KM: Yeah. I don't rename it once I've drafted it or anything. It just stays the same.
mohammad35	DB: Do you print out your writing to revise it?
mohammad36	KM: No, not typically.
mohammad37	DB: OK.
mohammad38	KM: Well, I mean, I might do that on occasion with something like an essay because it's easier on the eyes. But the poems are usually shorter, and again because of the specific nature of the composition, in some cases, you'll see I can't revise it really well at all if it's not on a computer.
mohammad39	DB: Yeah. Do you ever save any paper copies of interim drafts?
mohammad40	KM: Usually not. I think the only exception to that is maybe I have some paper copies somewhere of something I wrote in college and hope no one ever sees—maybe it's the way they're written. I don't ever bother to try and scribe them digitally.
mohammad41	DB: Do you back up your work?
mohammad42	KM: When I remember, yeah.
mohammad43	DB: And how often do you do that?
mohammad44	KM: Oh, god. I don't know. I probably need to do it right now—excuse me! Really, it's very erratic.
mohammad45	DB: OK. Do you have Dropbox or anything?
mohammad46	KM: You know, I've got a server here on campus. It's a backup server that I save things to. It's very simple. All I'd need to do is drag stuff right now, and I could do it to stop worrying about it. I've also got an external hard drive at home.
mohammad47	DB: And if you're going to archive it, if you're going to back it up, that's where you put the work? And once a poem is finished, do you move it to a different folder?	[00:04:40]
mohammad48	KM: Yeah, I've gotten kind of lax on it. I need to go in and update it, but typically what it'll be is: I have a folder—a main poetry folder—and within that, if there is a specific categories for certain projects, I'll divide them in to that, like a book project or whatever. And if something is published, typically, I'll put a copy of it in the Published folder, and then there would be like an Ongoing, or In-process, folder.
mohammad49	DB: Yeah. Do you keep print copies of final drafts? Do you print them out?
mohammad50	KM: Not usually.
mohammad51	DB: And how about the media you've been published in? Do you keep the journals in a sort of space?
mohammad52	KM: I do, yeah. I have a shelf full of journals and books.
mohammad53	DB: OK. So, do you have any standard practices for archiving digitally or physically, would you say?
mohammad54	KM: Maybe explain what you mean a little more.
mohammad55	DB: Do you have a certain kind of way you put it on an external hard drive, like you put all your papers, or your books, on a certain shelf and that's kind of like your "archive"?
mohammad56	KM: Yeah. Right, yes. Like I said, I do have a shelf in my living room. It's like most of the journals and books and anthologies I've been published in. And as far as I said for the digital files, yeah, there's usually a "published" folder—which is way behind being updated.
mohammad57	DB: So, have you ever received or sought out information about digital archiving, or any sort of practices in that way?
mohammad58	KM: Not really, no.
mohammad59	DB: OK. Would you be interested in receiving information?
mohammad60	KM: Possibly, yeah.
mohammad61	DB: OK, that was kind of the basics. And so, this gets more to your trajectory as a writer. It starts off kind of getting a larger arc of it. So, how long have you been writing "professionally"?
mohammad62	KM: I'd say since roughly '98 or '99.
mohammad63	DB: And could you kind of give us a sense of the arc of your career over that time period?	[00:06:55]
mohammad64	KM: Sure. That's when I was just finishing grad school and procrastinating on finishing my dissertation. So, I kind of went back to my long-time interest in contemporary poetry. And I think I had tried to send a few things out to get them published over the years, a few times without any success or sense of direction about it. And then during this time-wasting period, I became aware of electronic journals that were publishing authors I liked. But before that, I hadn't known even how to submit work, you know, to the same journals that would publish the kind of writers I liked. Because, you know, I had tried—for example, 5, 10 years before—to submit to magazines that I knew published language poetry and things like that. And typically I'd get no response, or maybe a slip saying, "Sorry, this journal is no longer in circulation" because the only way I heard about them in the first place was from the library copies. I had no contact with any of the people involved.
mohammad65	KM: So, the internet changed that. I've been published in a few online journals and made contacts with poets that way. And then it was pretty rapid, from an initial chapbook that was published by Kenning Editions—ran by Patrick Durgin—in 2001 called Hovercraft, and then my first book in 2003, Dearhead Nation, from Tougher Disguises Press, edited by James Mets. Then another book that next year by Mike McGhee's Combo Books—A Thousand Devils. A couple books at the end of the decade from Edge, edited by Rod Smith, and lots of journals and anthologies in the middle there. And a few other chapbooks that I've neglected to mention.
mohammad66	DB: And now, the project that you're working on is the "Sonograms"?
mohammad67	KM: That's my chief project, yeah.
mohammad68	DB: OK. But you have other ones going?
mohammad69	KM: Well, that's the one that I consciously think of as a project that I'm in the middle of. Occasionally, I'll write something just on a whim, but yeah, that's the main project.
mohammad70	DB: So, we'll sort of talk about the couple of different steps in the writing process, and then we're going to go through kind of how it was in the early stages of your writing and how it's changed. And so, my kind of way of thinking about it is there's the "compositional" stage—which is where you're kind of creating it—and then you have the "revision" stage. Then you kind of have the "organizational/archival" stage, which is when you're putting it into books and getting it published. So, those are the three stages to talk about, and then how those have changed over the course of time. Sort of like three-by-three.
mohammad71	KM: Sure.
mohammad72	DB: So, when you first started writing—and this is even before you started writing professionally, maybe before when you were trying to find those language poetry journals—what was your composition process? Or, how were you writing? What were you doing?	[00:09:40]
mohammad73	KM: It's really hard to reconstruct something that long ago. I don't think I have much of a method. I think I was really just kind of feeling around in the dark. So, I took a couple of creative writing classes in junior college. I took one as an undergrad that didn't really work for me. I mean I passed, but it didn't do anything for me. But yeah, I would just occasionally feel inspired to write something. I mean, it was very shapeless.
mohammad74	DB: Yeah. So, how did you come to find the writing that you liked? I mean, to find the language poetry, to find the journals that you were sending out to?
mohammad75	KM: I don't remember what led me to it, but I remember just surfing the web. I think one of the very first journals that caught my attention was Combo by Mike McGhee. They published Clark Coolidge and other language poets and younger poets I hadn't heard of. And at least some of it was online, I think, if I remember correctly. It was like limited digital sampling. And I just emailed them saying, "Hey, I just want to go about submitting work," or something like that. They liked the work, and I was published in there several times. It's the same thing with Kenning, which was also a journal—Patrick Durgin's journal. I think my first publication actually was in Fourteen Hills from San Francisco State. I went to a group reading for the contributors to that issue and met a lot of Bay Area poets. So, I established a connection with—I forget what the original question was now.
mohammad76	DB: Oh, it's fine. That's actually kind of where I'm pushing you. So, your writing styles in the beginning, your ways of composition—they're kind of formless—
mohammad77	KM: Oh, yeah, yeah.
mohammad78	DB: How did they start to progress, then? I mean, what was sort of the next step?
mohammad79	KM: Sure. That's actually pretty easy to answer, because it's kind of, at least so far, been kind of a really distinct, three-stage process.
mohammad80	DB: Oh, great!
mohammad81	KM: Yeah, I can actually answer according to the terms of the question! So, that earliest work—and this would be everything up through the period I'm talking about—was just basically, I don't know how quite to describe it. Organic, or free-hand, you know. Just making stuff up and writing it down. Words would come in to my head, and I would put them on the page. So, typically, I would just type it and it would be like trying to compose a musical piece, or something. Like, what should go after this? How can I complete this rhythm, or set of images? Something like that. And then that began to change with—again, I say 2000, 2001, when I met Gary Sullivan and other members of the Flarf Group—and that itself, that second stage had kind of like two stages. At first, I became acquainted with Gary's writing on an email list that we were both on, and just for a joke he wrote some kind of New Year's poem, or something like that, that he called a "flarf poem." "Flarf" was the invented name for the method. It was basically just writing the stupidest, most shapeless thing you could think of. So it was full of non-sense and obscenities, emphatic noises with no real shape or form other than just, basically, roughly being broken in to lines. He and I and a few other people started doing this just for fun, and we created our own email list just so we could do it. I'm sure the full origin stories out there about—
mohammad82	DB: Just for my clarification—it started on a different email list and then it moved to its own?
mohammad83	KM: That's right. And I guess really it started, if I'm correct—I think this is what Gary related to me—when he sent a poem in to one of those online vanity price things. "Poetry.com." And the short version: he was trying to get rejected. So, he wrote just the stupidest thing he could think of, and it was accepted for consideration for the anthology, which you then pay for if you're actually dumb enough to go through with that. So, that was the origin. Then he just started writing more of them on the email list even after he'd realized he couldn't get rejected, because it was fun. So, a group of us that were on this list, and so eventually, I think it was Drew Gardner who introduced a method in the middle of this shapeless writing of using Google search results. Just going in to the Google page, doing usually a combination search for like two or three terms that you wouldn't expect to see on the same page together and then using that initial search result page as a base from which to collage excerpts. Not following the links, just—
mohammad84	DB: Just the language that shows up in the Google cache?
mohammad85	KM: That's right, yeah. So, my typical process—and this is the second stage, the big second stage where, for 10 years, I basically just wrote Google collages—was I would copy however many pages of the search result page... You know, because I'd click "next page," "next page," "next page" of about ten or a hundred results, and the page would turn in to words, and I'd start chiseling it down. Rearranging it, shuffling the contents, and occasionally cheating a little bit by putting a connector word or something like "and" or "the." Or maybe altering a word that was in just a slightly different grammatical form or something. But that gets back to what we were saying about not doing print revisions because, really, everything's done kind of like refrigerator magnets—just shuffling around. And I guess printing out a page, I could look at the thing and go, "Well, if I brought some of this down here...". But I never did that.
mohammad86	DB: No, right. I mean, it makes sense. It's computer-generated material.
mohammad87	KM: Yeah, and part of the fun of it was using the computer as a kind of canvas.
mohammad88	DB: Yeah.
mohammad89	KM: There was something kind of pleasing about pulling the components around and almost physically moving them around in that digital space.
mohammad90	DB: And when you're copying the page, do you just, say, CTRL+All, grab it and drop it in? Do you get images and what-not with that? Or do you just drag the thing up and just get the text and paste it in?
mohammad91	KM: Yeah. I mean typically, on a Mac, I'd just select the whole page, copy, and paste. I mean, there weren't any images because it was just the result page.
mohammad92	DB: Just the result page, OK.
mohammad93	KM: Right. What you would get was a lot of the, like, red or blue text, or purple text—the URLs and headers and things like that. But typically the first stage of going through the manuscript would be to remove all of that kind of junk-text. I mean it was all junk, but...
mohammad94	DB: Right.
mohammad95	KM: But, yeah, they were just numbers and code, so all I would have left were recognizable words, and maybe numbers.
mohammad96	DB: And in getting rid of that junk-text, were you reading it at the same time, or were you starting to kind of get a sense of what you had gotten? Or was it just kind of a rote "Let's get rid of this and then look at it"?
mohammad97	KM: I think—based on my memory—it would be a rote thing of, just, "First, let's get rid of everything I know is not actual, or in most cases, not useable text." I mean, there might be some little strings of code where I think, "Oh, that's kind of cool just by itself—I'll leave that in," but it was mostly an automatic process of, "Let me reduce it to just letters and black text, as opposed to colored, linked text". And then from that stage—and I don't know how interesting this could possibly be to anybody, but—
mohammad98	DB: I'm interested!
mohammad99	KM: —what would be left after that would be a lot of things like ellipses or dashes, because there'd be partial phrases and then ellipses, and then a beginning of another phrase, and that'd be how the search results would be arranged on the page. So then I might just say, "OK, I might get rid of all or most of the ellipses or dashes." I would also go through—just for the sake of composition—and change case. Select everything and then change case to lowercase just to get rid of all the blocks of caps that were kind of unwieldy. And then later in that process of composition I might change some letters back to caps, but typically, for whatever reason, the default format for the poem would be no caps unless they're required by convention, by which I mean proper names and things like that. I wouldn't capitalize the beginning of a line or anything like that. So, basically, once I was ready to actually start composing the poem I would have however many pages full of lowercase language in black and white.
mohammad100	DB: Yeah. And so for the dashes and ellipses and what-not, would you just do a "find all" and delete them?	[00:19:03]
mohammad101	KM: Yeah, that would be the quick way. I learned that pretty quickly. I would just, "Find this and replace with nothing" until I'd just have words for the most part, and maybe some numerals.
mohammad102	DB: Yeah. And so that's almost kind of your "pre-writing" stage in some ways, and then you're to the point where you're "composing" the poem, or whatever word you use. I mean, what words do you use?
mohammad103	KM: Yeah. I mean, just because of the nature of the way it was copied on the page, what I'd usually end up with would be something like tercets, or something that looked, on the page, already kind of like tercets. Which is why a lot of the poems—not all of them—end up being in tercets. I would just keep that. And sometimes two lines, sometimes three lines, sometimes longer, and sometimes more longer stanzas. But sometimes just that accidental form would give me kind of a starting point like, "OK, I've got groups of three lines, but I want to move this line from this one up here to this other one and then balance out the other one with the other line or phrase." Like I said, it would be like refrigerator magnets, though sometimes with full phrases instead of just individual words. And in the middle of that process, I'd usually get rid of most of the language—some of the language I couldn't figure out what interesting things I could do with, or that wouldn't be interesting. So, the finished poems might be anywhere from a third of a page to several pages long, but I'd be starting sometimes with, like, ten pages.
mohammad104	DB: And you'd just go and delete, delete, delete?
mohammad105	KM: Mhmm. Rearrange, shuffle.
mohammad106	DB: And so what were the phrases or words, or groupings, that would catch your eye, or catch your ear? I mean, which was it catching?
mohammad107	KM: I'd say earlier in the process it had more to do with the original search terms I used. So, for example, my first book Deer Head Nation involved a bunch of searches that usually included, among other terms, the term "deer head." So, for that, I was obviously motivated to keep deer head a lot of the time so I could keep that theme going. Or, sometimes I would think of a phrase I thought was funny or bizarre and I'd want that to be a title, and I'd want to keep a few instances of those words in the poem. I'd say, I guess, several years further along into the process, I got to the point where I didn't really care if the original search terms showed up at all. I just wanted to create kind of a lyric construct, but one that was limited in its sources to that bank of terms.
mohammad108	DB: What do you think got you to that sort of preference?
mohammad109	KM: No idea.
mohammad110	DB: No idea?
mohammad111	KM: I think just getting bored with the regularity of the earlier process. Which I think worked pretty well for me with some of the original first projects, because they were kind of thematically motivated. You know, the deer head thing was supposed to be kind of a metaphor for imperialism or something, I don't know.
mohammad112	DB: Yeah.
mohammad113	KM: But as I went on, I just really became more concerned with just wanting a verbal shape or sculpture that I found interesting.
mohammad114	DB: And do you find then that those later poems are more "readable"?
mohammad115	KM: Probably not! I mean, that's a good question. I'm laughing, but I mean, you know, one person's definition of "readable" is very different from another's. Because in all honesty, some people would look at it, whether it's an earlier stage or a later stage, and think, "This isn't poetry. This is just spam or something. This is just garbage from the internet." And I don't even think that divide is along the "experimental" or "traditional," necessarily, because, frankly, a lot of the biggest critics of Flarf are experimental poets.
mohammad116	DB: Right.
mohammad117	KM: So, I think it really just has to do with whether a person has the kind of mind that likes "arrangement," in that sense, rather than—let me rephrase that. I think it depends whether someone's drawn to verbal arrangement over-and-above verbal theme. I mean, that's what drew me originally to poets like Clark Coolidge, or other language poets. You know, it didn't matter what it "said" in the traditional sense. I was interested in, like, "Wow! How can you put those words in that place!" So, I don't really know what's readable to the "average person." Because I don't think there is an "average person."	[00:23:00]
mohammad118	DB: Yeah. I guess—in terms of your own reading, or in terms of your own compositions—when you're making those things, did you find those later poems to be more pleasurable to make? You said there was more of a lyric bent to them.
mohammad119	KM: Yeah, I don't know if other people would see it as lyric, necessarily, but, yeah. I think so. I think, inevitably, it became almost—at least from my perspective—more traditional. Again, I think other people would look at it and say, "You call this traditional?" But I felt like I was kind of going back to the kinds of things that pleased me about older forms of poetry. So, even if the poems themselves have like ridiculous vocabulary and images—you know, junk food, or porn site terminology, or whatever else comes off the internet—I would be looking for rhythm. I'm very influenced by somebody like Clark Coolidge, on that level—kind of like the jazz-influenced mode of composition.	[00:24:00]
mohammad120	DB: So how are you constructing your lines if you're looking for that sort of rhythm?
mohammad121	KM: I guess the lines are really just determined by the shape of the phrases. I mean, for me, the rhythm comes outward from words. It's not like a pentameter rhythm or something that's determined by a set length. Not in that project. Not in those poems.
mohammad122	DB: When you grabbed a phrase or a few phrases, were those automatically lines, or would you break those into different lines?
mohammad123	KM: It really depends, but usually I do a lot of breaking. I mean, there's a sense on which the whole process is kind of unnecessary, I mean, because ultimately what I was doing was just manipulating the results so much. I mean, I would think all the time that I really didn't need to go to the internet except at the level of just, I think, vocabulary. And maybe beyond that, just for little syntactical clusters, like, "Oh, wow! Look at these four words in a row. I would never have come up with these four words in a row on my own, just trying to think of something." So, what I was looking for was just really a pallet full of colors—colors I couldn't think of by myself, because no human being would think of putting those things in a poem because they're not that. They're something else at that stage.
mohammad124	DB: So, in terms of your revision strategies for these poems, in the early stages you had more—and I'm sort of recapping, here—of an intent towards representing the search in some very fundamental way. And then, later, it started to become you wanting to kind of represent an accumulation and arrangement more lyrically, or more in a way that was kind of traditional, in your traditions of poetry.
mohammad125	KM: But I think the one constant was the importance of the idea that was generated by the search. I don't see the need to mask the method. I think one of the pleasures, for me, of reading other work like that by other people is knowing, "Oh, they did this by using a particular procedure." And I'm still most interested in how the finished work affects me. But the knowledge that it was created in a certain way is something I can't separate, and that I don't want to separate. So, you know, I would frame the work all the way through. If I were to mention it, which I have the occasion to do in the beginning of the book, or whatever—"This was creating using Google search methods"—I think it helps people going in to it with that knowledge. But like you're saying, I didn't necessarily want the search to retain some imprint of all the original conditions of the search. Maybe in the first book, to some extent. For example, in Deer Head Nation, I not only kept a lot more longer clusters—the original syntactic clusters—but I would keep a bunch of ellipses and create visual groupings with them. All these kind of graphic reminders of what the process was. I just felt less inclined to do that as I went on because it didn't seem necessary for the different kinds of poems I was going in to.
mohammad126	DB: Right, right. What about the prose poems in this tradition? How did those come about?
mohammad127	KM: I mean, same thing. But there, the original search terms did remain much more important because, I mean, you have a phrase like "and then she said" or something very fixed and obviously, in order to keep the shape throughout the poem, I'm going to have to keep coming back to that tag. There, the goal is usually to make it seem seamless, like this is the one subject saying something over and over again. So, yeah, that would be an exception. Although, I think I also did some prose poems where I didn't stick that much to whatever original, grammatical framing. I don't remember off hand, how, or which ones, but—
mohammad128	DB: Were these revisions driven by sound? I mean, were you reading them out loud to get a better kind of rhythm or did you have like meanings or themes that you wanted to elicit?	[00:28:58]
mohammad129	KM: Yeah, that's a good question. I think sound was probably usually at least tied for the primary motivator, there.
mohammad130	DB: What would determine a line break, then, in terms of sound?
mohammad131	KM: That's a difficult question even for like traditional modes of writing, right?
mohammad132	DB: It's an impossible question.
mohammad133	KM: This is one of the things that drives me crazy in workshop when I'm teaching. It's like, on the one hand, wanting people to think about line breaks and what motivates them to do what they do, and on the other hand, getting so tired of getting so bogged-down in completely arbitrary theories of, like, "The Line Break." Because, in some ways, it's like a very important thing, but in some ways it's just totally random. I mean, not in every poem, obviously, and of course, if you're working in a fixed form, it's taken care of. But free-verse or procedural, or other kinds of things where the line breaks are kind of a post-facto consideration—I mean, really, it's just going on my nerve, you know? Just what strikes me at the moment is seeming like a good way to keep the rhythm going, or to create a halt in the rhythm, or to do a little of both depending on where I am in the poem.
mohammad134	DB: So what would be the phrase that you would use? I mean, you said it's "collage," that it's "Google collage". I mean, I've seen "Google sculpt," I've seen "found poetry"—
mohammad135	KM: Yeah, "Google sculpt" is the term I kind of tried to put out there for it.
mohammad136	DB: So that's the one you sort of prefer saying? It's like "Google sculpting"? I mean, sculpting being collage works—
mohammad137	KM: Yeah, I mean "Google collage" works, too.
mohammad138	DB: Do you know what the search terms are for each poem, and is there somewhere where that's recorded?	[00:31:00]
mohammad139	KM: No. Sometimes I think about that, like, "Why didn't I keep a record of how exactly this came about?" But no, I'm too absent-minded and lazy for that.
mohammad140	DB: You'd probably have to recreate it someday by using a simulator or something.
mohammad141	KM: Oh, you can't! Because, I mean, the internet has completely changed, right?
mohammad142	DB: Yeah.
mohammad143	KM: It's gone forever.
mohammad144	DB: I know—it's so fascinating. So, we've moved from the first stage to the second stage to then the two stages of that, the latter stage of that having run up for about ten years you said?
mohammad145	KM: Something like that, yeah. So, I'm writing just free-form—or however you want to describe it—from '98 to 2000. So that was a very short phase, though the second book, A Thousand Devils, was kind of stuff left over from that stage. So, even though that came out in 2004, most of it had been written quite earlier.
mohammad146	DB: And Hovercraft is also from that stage?
mohammad147	KM: Yeah, that's from that initial stage.
mohammad148	DB: And then the second stage starts with Deer Head Nation?
mohammad149	KM: Mhmm—through Breathalyzer and The Front.
mohammad150	DB: And so this third section, then, is the "sonograms"?
mohammad151	KM: Yeah.
mohammad152	DB: So, how did that project come about?	[00:32:11]
mohammad153	KM: I should just say, by the way, I'm calling these "stages" just as a convenient way of separating different times. I don't think of it necessarily like, "Oh, this is the, you know, "initiatory" stage and I developed in to this." This is just what I happened to start doing or stop doing.
mohammad154	DB: Yeah—not a compression.
mohammad155	KM: Yeah. So, yeah, Sonograms—I forgot what year. It's been an embarrassingly long time now, because I've been working very slowly on it. I've been a very lazy poet.
mohammad156	DB: The best poets are.
mohammad157	KM: I mean, it would've been finished a long time ago if I kept any schedule. I'm a little over halfway through. I think I started in, I don't know, 2008, or something like that. It was National Poetry month, and I was looking for an idea, just some quick and easy gimmick to allow me to write a poem a day. And I thought I could do something with Shakespeare's sonnets. It's like: go to the internet and find a sonnet, copy it, and paste it in to a Word doc. Then: "Okay—what can I do in the next five or ten minutes using this as my source?" I'd say, "Here, I wrote a poem for this silly tradition." And I'd just start kind of shuffling it and playing with it with my cursor, thinking. And I had been recently impressed by a book by Gregory Bets, which I'm now embarrassingly forgetting the title of. Anyway, it's a book in which he takes a paragraph from a speech and rearranges it multiple times throughout the book just by a letter. So, it's anagrams of the same paragraph. Christian Bök gave me a copy of this—as well as, I think, Gregory Betts, who was with him at the time—and said, "Hey, you'll like this book." And I did. And I thought, "Oh, I want to play around with this," and I suddenly remembered, "Oh, anagrams. Well, OK. This will probably take too long. I'll just start shuffling it around, figuring out ways to break it up." And then I came up with the idea of taking each of the lines and feeding them in to an anagram generator, because that's all that would fit—at the time, it'd be one line. So, I did that, and every time I fed it in, the anagram generator would give me a choice of a bunch of word lists that you could make by rearranging that particular line. I just picked the one I liked the best until I had this poem that was fourteen lines with silly words. So I thought, "Well, OK. There, that's a poem. But, eh, it's not that interesting. I mean, it's kind of cool." And in retrospect, that was another thing I wish I had done, which was save all these initial first stage word lists that I used to create the poems, but I haven't.
mohammad158	DB: The librarian in me is sort of cringing right now.	[00:35:00]
mohammad159	KM: Well they're just kind of neat poems, like cheap, fake poems on their own. They're just line-by-line anagrams of the original sonnet, but without much syntax or anything. They're just words in a row.
mohammad160	DB: Right.
mohammad161	KM: So, I sat there and thought, "Oh, I'm already ten or fifteen minutes in to it, but it'd be more interesting if I move the letters throughout the poem like Gregory Betts did." So, I did that, and then like four or five hours later, I had been working on these poems for, like, a big chunk of the day. So then I got really hooked on it and started doing a bunch of them. I don't think I kept to the the National Poetry Month schedule, but I did a few of these, and soon it stuck. Now, I'm up to ninety-something, I think. It's embarrassing. Like I said, it's been since 2008—I should have a lot more.
mohammad162	DB: And there are a hundred and—?
mohammad163	KM: A hundred and fifty-four, total. But, yeah, so each poem is just an anagram. And then, I would say, there's a "cheat": I'll use all the letters to create a new poem in iambic pentameter, with the original rhyme scheme—A, B, A, B, etcetera, with three quatrains and a couplet—but then I'll have letters left over. It's almost never a problem that I don't have enough letters, usually, it's just that I can't use them all in the poem. So, I'll use those extra letters to make up a title, but that usually is pretty stupid. The whole poem is stupid, but the title isn't in pentameter or anything. It's just whatever I can do with the leftover letters.
mohammad164	DB: So you started off with the kind of stuff from the anagram generator, and I'm assuming that's not in iambic pentameter?	[00:37:03]
mohammad165	KM: Right—just words.
mohammad166	DB: So, was that the initial move that first day? You went, like, "Oh, I need to make this match up with the Elizabethan sonnet form"?
mohammad167	KM: Yeah, yeah. That was pretty much it. I think the very first one was the one that's on this little trading card—
mohammad168	DB: Oh, I have that trading card!
mohammad169	KM: Frankly, in fact, it's definitely the worst out of all of them, because it's got sort of a consistence in text and grammar, but it's just complete nonsense. But it was, in fact, technically iambic pentameter, and it technically rhymed. You know, it half rhymed. Then I got much more stringent about it from them on, like, "Oh, I'm going to actually make them construable as meanings even if they are bizarre meanings."
mohammad170	DB: OK. And so from that first one on—from two to wherever you are now—you were like, "Okay, now I'm going to have more structure to them"?
mohammad171	KM: Yeah. I mean, they always have the structure—I may be overstating it. I think the first ones probably, in some ways, are as construable as the others. I think it was just finding my stride for the next few, like, "Oh, I don't have to reach for these, like, half rhymes." Or, I can make that the most determined, kind of fluid part of it, and just then make the absurdities stand out in even more pleasing relief.
mohammad172	DB: I mean, you said they got "better" as you did them, and I'm sort of interested in this from your early Flarf stuff to The Front, too. I mean, I don't know, for my taste, I think it's better. And so, I'm wondering, how do you think of it in that way? Is it just from practice?	[00:38:35]
mohammad173	KM: I think it really is that simple. I think after the first one or two, I just got more practice working with the pentameter, creating a smoother flow. Really, that's all.
mohammad174	DB: Right. And so now that you're almost at number one hundred, do you have a different way of going about it?
mohammad175	KM: The basic process has stayed exactly the same. I think I changed the generator at one point in the process because I found a better one.
mohammad176	DB: What was the first generator?
mohammad177	KM: I don't remember what the first one was. It was kind of the standard, like the one most people would come to first, I believe. And the way I chose it in the first place was that it was just one that would accommodate an entire line, because not all of them would. Usually, they're better with names, or things like that. But I found one that would take an entire line of iambic pentameter. And then most recently, the one I use now is, I think, the best out of all the ones I've used. It's called "One Across," at oneacross.com.
mohammad178	DB: OK.	[00:40:00]
mohammad179	KM: And it's nice because it's got a little control. I'm sure all the others have probably developed since I've been doing this, too, and they can do a lot of the same things. But, I'll put the basic line in the top box and then I have a little, if I want to, optional box where I can make sure it contains a certain word, if I find a certain word I want to make sure is in it, but I don't like the first few. Because there are sometimes hundreds of options to scroll through. So I can be like, "Make sure it contains lawnmower," you know, or whatever.
mohammad180	DB: So, you can you search and then limit the search in some ways.
mohammad181	KM: Mhmm.
mohammad182	DB: That's interesting. Does it ever produce a perfectly iambic pentameter line that you can use?
mohammad183	KM: I haven't done that yet. I'm sure it's theoretically possible.
mohammad184	DB: Electronic monkeys writing King Lear!
mohammad185	KM: I mean, do you know about the Pentametron? Which is this wonderful Twitter-based website.
mohammad186	DB: No, I do not know about the Pentametron.
mohammad187	KM: It is exactly kind of what you just said. Somebody built a program that just continuously scans Twitter—everybody's Twitter account, apparently—and finds all lines of iambic pentameter. Really, most of them, I'm sure, are accidental. And it finds other lines of iambic pentameter that rhyme with them, and creates this ongoing poem. I can go to it right now—
mohammad188	DB: Yeah.
mohammad189	KM: The one thing about it is it always starts with the oldest part. I wish it were bottom to top so you could always see the most recent.
mohammad190	DB: Yeah.
mohammad191	KM: Oh, here we are. You just go to the Twitter page with that. "Bread cards and sweaty bodies everywhere. The largest arms erect into the air. I'm way excited for the album though, you just a hoe—a stupid, stupid hoe. Tim Duncan is a fucking dinosaur. I'm not a people person anymore. I wanna wear a maxi dress today. I really wanna sleep today away," and so on. It also shows who the original Tweeter was, and it's just random people. So, it's like the greatest poem of the 21st century.
mohammad192	DB: Yeah. Do you know who's behind it?
mohammad193	KM: Oh, I don't know. Whoever it is, I don't know them personally, and I don't remember what their name is.
mohammad194	DB: Yeah. That's fascinating. I know that the New York Times had that one where they'd make little haikus, too. Similar project, not as good. So, getting back—do other people play any roles in all these things? I guess I'm interested in how it was writing to the list serve in that early stage. I mean, in terms of revision and kind of the forces that sort of morphed your poetry—what was that like?
mohammad195	KM: That was great. I think, really, most members of the list would agree that was the most stimulating thing about being on the list—just feeding-off everyone else's excitement and creativity, because it was very much a big hug fest. There was almost nothing critical going on in there, ever. We just try to write stuff to bust each other up. And it would be very responsive—if somebody wrote a poem with farting unicorns, somebody else would write one and expand on that. Like, farting glittery unicorns, you know—the sillier the better. The more obnoxious, the better.
mohammad196	DB: So, that sort of frivolous stuff—the farting unicorns—that sort of silliness was very highly valued on the list serve?
mohammad197	KM: Yeah. I mean, that was kind of the original spirit of Flarf. And I think it's also part of the reason for a lot of the resistance to Flarf from experimental directions. There was a sense that it wasn't taking the struggle seriously enough, or something. Which, you know, I think is what comes out of this, for me, misguided sense that this absolute stone-facedness is necessary at all times. And, there are times where there are legitimate objections, and I'd rather not go in to details. But there are, you know, some poems that upset people.
mohammad198	DB: Right.
mohammad199	KM: And I think it was very upsetting to the people who wrote them that they did upset people, because even though it might seem from the outside like, "Well, weren't you trying to offend people? Weren't you trying to get people upset?" But it was like, "Well, no—not these people."
mohammad200	DB: Right, right.
mohammad201	KM: And I think initially we were very resentful about it. It felt like, "Oh, we're on your side and you're misunderstanding us. These are not racist or sexist or otherwise vile intentions that you're looking at, here." But, I mean, I feel like as time has gone on, I try very hard to be more sympathetic to that response because out of that context that it emerged from, it's easy to see how a poem that mentions certain things in certain tones is almost impossible to separate from a poem that mentions those things in that tone with different intentions. And I think, even past Flarf, things like that are going on right now with some of the younger conceptual writers in this work I really admire, but then I see other poets I really admire feeling deeply hurt by the work they're creating. It's very difficult. I don't have a way to kind of justify any of it, or to put it in to order in my mind.	[00:44:43]
mohammad202	DB: Yeah, no. It's a tough one. I mean, a lot of your career and a lot of your writing has kind of happened from the internet and on the internet—with the blogging and the commenting—and that seems to have, in some ways, died down a bit?
mohammad203	KM: Yeah, blogging seems to be a thing in the past. For me, anyway.
mohammad204	DB: How did that shape your practice, your writing? You say that you've evolved in some ways about your opinions on some of the content that would be included. Have there been other effects? Could you elaborate more on that?
mohammad205	KM: I'd say what I've evolved in, at first, is not necessarily... I haven't changed my mind about some of the—I don't know what you want to call it—"starting theory". I've tried to become more empathetic and not immediately judge anyone who doesn't get it.
mohammad206	DB: Right.
mohammad207	KM: Or, see, even using a phrase like "doesn't get it" already shows a little residual judgment. There may be more than one way to "get it" in some ways that don't match our intentions, and we need to consider that we're accountable for that.
mohammad208	DB: Right. Well, and so much of the sort of the latter part of Flarf has been sort of the death of Flarf, in some of the blog posts and whatnot. Was that partly the reaction? Just like, "Let it go"? I mean, where does it go from there, I guess, is the question.	[00:47:13]
mohammad209	KM: I'm not sure how much. I think "Death of Flarf," most of the time, was a phrase we used ourselves just to kind of, like, kill the beast before it killed us, or something. But I think it just ran its course. I think, like any movement, the movement itself had its main value in the way it motivated the members of the movement, and that most of the writers go on to write however they're going to write. And it's influenced by that, but it's not the same. But your original question was about the blogging?
mohammad210	DB: Yeah, and kind of how that influenced your own writing.
mohammad211	KM: I don't know. I think for me, again, the main value of the blogging thing was to bring me in to contact with other poets and having discussions. I think there were a lot of people—in the early aughts, especially—blogging every day, and we were having fun conversations. For whatever reason, people moved on to other platforms, and other projects. And it also ran its course. But I don't know. I mean, I think the main effect was just social.	[00:48:06]
mohammad212	DB: I guess one question is could you have written the "sonograms" in the way that you're doing without Flarf? What sort of influence was there?
mohammad213	KM: Well, there are certain surface similarities, right? I mean, the idea of the refrigerator magnet process—pasting something into Word and using that as my template. So, yeah, I think in some ways, at least originally, I considered it an extension of Flarf practice. I guess there's no way to say that it is or isn't. There's no definite meaning to that. It is if I say it is, I guess.
mohammad214	DB: Right, right.
mohammad215	KM: But, yeah. It's probably something I wouldn't have done in quite the same way I did it if I hadn't been doing Flarf.
mohammad216	DB: This goes back to some of the questions we were just talking about, but what sort of skills did you learn in doing the Flarf that kind of go into the "sonograms"? What did you come in feeling strong about, and what did you learn?
mohammad217	KM: I think it's what I mentioned earlier—just that approach to arrangement. Finding clusters, finding strings in already existing verbal groups. Kind of being able to sift and sculpt something that was already in front of me.
mohammad218	DB: Yeah. So, I think we've kind of covered some of the general push through composition and revision, but I'm also interested in how you would put together the books, especially if—well, one question before we move in to that. Do you still write in that sort of traditional Flarf way? Are you still grabbing Google responses?	[00:49:45]
mohammad219	KM: I haven't done it in a long time. I think I did a few kind of like "post-Flarf" Flarf poems for a couple of years after I started doing the "sonograms," but eventually it just—I don't know. I think even the way it's configured on the internet now is such that it doesn't work quite the same way. I couldn't tell you exactly how, but I know the one or two times in the last year I even thought about trying to go back and do it, I thought, "Oh, this isn't the same."
mohammad220	DB: There's a lot more information like, underneath, and on the side. I mean, it's just kind of taken-over in so many ways.
mohammad221	KM: I think, yeah. And part of it is Google has gotten too smart.
mohammad222	DB: Yeah.
mohammad223	KM: Things are grouped according to usefulness, rather than just random occurrence of words.
mohammad224	DB: And who you are, too.
mohammad225	KM: Yeah, it knows me too well, and it's—I don't trust it.
mohammad226	DB: Google will let it appear, and Google will let it disappear. Terrifying. But in those terms, what were you using? Like, how were you composing the books then—like Deer Head Nation and Breathalyzer and The Front? You don't really have sections in those books—they just kind of go through, right?
mohammad227	KM: Really, the only one that's thematically organized in any sense is the first one. I mean, with the whole deer head theme which, like I said, is just a sort of floating metaphor.
mohammad228	DB: Right.
mohammad229	KM: Breathalyzer and The Front are, in all honesty, pretty much interchangeable, in terms of how the poems are chosen or grouped. They're just individual poems. And I actually have a full other manuscript that may or may not get published from that period. It's just been so long now that, even though I actually like some of the poems there, I thought, "Does anybody really want this now? Has the time passed?" It's called Monsters, and tentatively it might come out from Edge Books, but I haven't followed up on my obligations off getting the manuscript in. So, I don't know where I stand with that. I may have screwed it up.
mohammad230	DB: When you were publishing these books, and maybe with Monsters, do you have relationships with the editors where they're revising the shape of the book?
mohammad231	KM: Well, I definitely have a relationship with the editors. But I mean, like Rod Smith for Edge—fantastic editor, fantastic poet. But he's pretty hands-off in terms of the actual creative content. I'd say his input and his helpers' input comes at the level of things like layout.
mohammad232	DB: OK.
mohammad233	KM: Yeah.
mohammad234	DB: And then I know you have, also, some e-chapbooks and whatnot. What do you feel about those, and how do you end up with them?
mohammad235	KM: I haven't even looked at them in so long, I can hardly give you a clear answer. I remember some of it was very early Flarf, but again, I haven't looked at it in a long time. I suspect I'd probably just cringe looking at a lot of it. Because I think what was initially exciting about the process is what quickly becomes predictable and crude about it—like, "Oh, look! This text comes off the internet. It smells like the internet! Look at it, you can see internet all over it." It becomes kind of obvious after a while.
mohammad236	DB: Yeah.
mohammad237	KM: But, I don't know. Yeah, I mean that's all so long ago.
mohammad238	DB: And in terms of the digital documents that contain those manuscripts and those books, I mean, are they in a certain spot in your computer somewhere?	[00:53:22]
mohammad239	KM: I think I just have the original Word documents of them, and then whatever else is out there. Or maybe a .PDF, in a couple of cases.
mohammad240	DB: Do you feel in any way—and this is getting back to the more technical stuff—sort of like "dear" towards them? Or are you like, "These are there, but really, the book's the book"? Like, is there enough value on them that you make sure where they are and that they're valued, etcetera, on a digital format, too?
mohammad241	KM: Well, there's at least that much value—that I know I have copies of them. But beyond that—and again, I'm not trying to be evasive—it's not that I actually am embarrassed, or have strong feeling one way or the other. It's just that I really don't remember that well what's in them.
mohammad242	DB: Okay, yeah.
mohammad243	KM: Because I was just doing so much stuff at that time. I mean, I'm sure if I took a few minutes to look, I'd go, "Oh, yeah! This one. I like this one," or "I don't like this one so much." But I'm trying to even form a mental image right now and—yeah.
mohammad244	DB: So—I do have a few Flarf questions I wanted to make sure I asked, but I think I got through most of them. One of the questions I ask the other people who teach—and you teach, too—is how does this influence the way you teach? What did Flarf teach you that then you tried to teach them, or anything in that sense?	[00:54:34]
mohammad245	KM: I guess, the single most important thing is just that it has to be fun in some level. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily frame it as "Flarf" in the classroom in this way, but I think one of the first things I try to do in the beginning in the classroom is break down the sense of over-seriousness that sometimes holds people back. So, I'll give them exercises—which people were doing a lot before Flarf—you know: write the worse poem you can. Things like that. Or I might, for a specific exercise, suggest procedure that is relevant to Flarf, but I won't say, "Okay, now we're going to write a Flarf poem." There are, inevitably, times when it comes up, or somebody in the class has heard of Flarf and they say, "What's Flarf?" and the story will get told. But I actually try to hold back on that because too often it results, I think, in exercises that might be fun for the student, and even produce humorous material, but don't necessarily contribute to the kinds of foundational verbal skills that I want people to concentrate on. Or if it does, it doesn't for everyone. For some people, it can be a way to avoid.
mohammad246	DB: Right.
mohammad247	KM: But I guess that's true for everything.
mohammad248	DB: And what are those sort of foundational verbal skills that you're after?
mohammad249	KM: I mean, just really basic conservative things like rhythm, like avoiding clichés. And just writing something where you're not just recycling received notions of what a poem ought to be.
mohammad250	DB: Right, yeah. It's all about kind of getting towards writing something interesting, making something interesting to a reader, right?
mohammad251	KM: And looking in to sources that you might not immediately consider, you know? Encouraging them to read a lot of poetry. Just the really basic things.
mohammad252	DB: Right, right. Just a few more questions. I guess...Eh, no. I think we're good.
mohammad253	KM: Oh, good.
mohammad254	DB: Thanks, Kasey.
mohammad255	KM: Yeah!
mohammad256	DB: That was really great.
mohammad257	KM: It was a pleasure.
mohammad258	DB: Yeah.
mohammad259	KM: Sometimes I'm so croaky—
mohammad260	DB: No, it'll be cool, you know, whenever it shows up. Ah—the off button.
mohammad261	KM: Are we Friends on Facebook?
mohammad262	DB: I don't have a Facebook.
mohammad263	KM: Oh, Okay.
pinsky1	Robert Pinsky: You want me to play to the camera at all or do you want me to play for you?	[00:00:00]
pinsky2	Devin Becker: Me, it's fine. This isn't like going to go on PBS or anything. It's more archival and then I might make some clips if I ever get a website together, which hopefully will happen. You were saying that you use the word "compose" rather than "write" because you are using a sort of oral and voice-based mechanism, which is your body.
pinsky3	RP: For the rest of, it I do all of the above. I write longhand on paper, I compose on a computer, more process of revising. Like most people, I print out very frequently, scroll over the print out, stare at with the scrolling on the print out is, create another fair draft either in my mind or on the computer. I number my drafts DR1, sometimes DR0 if I know it's not going to last long. I've gone up to DR87. I think in some things I've gone up to DR104 in the file menu.
pinsky4	DB: You are using Microsoft Word when you're using these file names?
pinsky5	RP: I tend to use... I always get mixed up. I think they call it RealOffice for Mac and NeoOffice for Windows. Maybe it's the opposite.
pinsky6	DB: Oh okay, but it is—?
pinsky7	RP: It's basically a word processor like Word.
pinsky8	DB: Okay.
pinsky9	RP: There is also a neat one that I use for difficult things—I don't know why I don't use it on everything, I can't remember—called something called Nisus Writer. I could look at it.
pinsky10	DB: Yeah. I've heard of one called Scrivener.
pinsky11	RP: No, this is, I think, the state of the art. I think this is the one and—yes, Nisus Writer Pro. It's terrific at all kinds of elaborate formatting and indexes. Nisus Pro.
pinsky12	DB: Nisus Pro?
pinsky13	RP: Yeah.
pinsky14	DB: When did you start using that?
pinsky15	RP: A couple of years ago, but I'll juggle them. I'll go through phases for certain purposes, duplex printing on it, non-duplex printing printer. I know how to do it on Word, so I'll open up Word. So in a way, I use all of the above but I'm not loyal to any particular word processor.
pinsky16	DB: Software essentially?
pinsky17	RP: Yeah.
pinsky18	DB: I guess what drove the getting the Nisus? Did somebody tell you about it and you just thought—?
pinsky19	RP: I probably did some web research but there were things that I didn't like about the NeoOffice page numbering and headers and footers. It seemed clumsy to me and none of these programs are super expensive anymore, it used to be a big investment. The best one I have ever used was like Betamax versus VHS. It was excellent, but didn't have enough followers—Word Perfect. Word Perfect was terrific, it was perfect, and that doesn't always win the marketplace.
pinsky20	DB: Not it does not. Word Perfect was in the '90s, I think?
pinsky21	RP: I'm an early computer user, so I probably started using it in the mid-80s. I wrote a computer entertainment in the early '80s.
pinsky22	DB: I know, Mindwheel, correct?
pinsky23	RP: Mindwheel, yeah. I just read a new very informative article about Mindwheel. Although I'm kind of paper tiger in technical things, I don't really know a lot about computers. I've had to do with them and I've used them for a long time.
pinsky24	DB: Since the early 80s?
pinsky25	RP: I think it was 1980 when they asked me to start Mindwheel and you can tell how prehistoric, how early that was, by the brand of the computer that they gave me to write it on. They gave me a computer that was an Atari.
pinsky26	DB: Do you miss the Atari?
pinsky27	RP: No. I still remember that monochrome, yellow, black-on-yellow monitor that weighed more than anybody's big flat screen TV. It was immense. For a long time, anything I wrote to be read on the screen, I wrote on the computer and things I meant to be read off paper, I wrote on paper. The pen or with the nicest machine I have ever owned, an IBM Selectric.
pinsky28	DB: When did you own that?
pinsky29	RP: I had a Selectric in the '70s and the '80s. I often regret that I don't still own one.
pinsky30	RP: It was like a BMW. It was such an excellent machine—that golf ball click-click-click. And then they had that lift-off tape, so you could erase perfectly. Because the ink was so precise that they had a lift-off ribbon and you went to that and back spaced—it lifted the ink off the page. And it was a solid machine. It just did what it was supposed to do so well. There were obvious reasons why electronic, why the computer took over, but this IBM Selectric was a beautiful machine.	[00:05:00]
pinsky31	DB: It's good. I have not thought of it as a beautiful machine before, but I think that's good to know.
pinsky32	RP: Have you ever used one?
pinsky33	DB: I've never really used it, so I can't say.
pinsky34	RP: It's amazing.
pinsky35	DB: Yeah. Now I kind of want to go and find one. My typewriter experiences have not been very good.
pinsky36	RP: A crappy typewriter is not any fun.
pinsky37	DB: And any ones that I end up looking at or using are out of tune, essentially. So, you are a Windows user primarily but with—?
pinsky38	RP: No. I used to be a Windows user. I'm primarily an iOS Mac user now.
pinsky39	DB: You're primarily an iOS Mac user. That is, then, just a screen that's coming from the MacBook Pro?
pinsky40	RP: Yes it is. Maybe this is the kind of thing you are interested in—I used to go through the whole rigmarole of syncing between my desktop and my laptop. I went through various generations of the best way to do that and now I'm not quite at the totally-cloud web system, but I realized that with a nice external monitor, external keyboard, external mouse, I can use the MacBook Pro as what we used to call the ICU. Then when I'm tired of using that way, I just have to remember to eject the backup and then unplug all that stuff and then I could get on an airplane with it. I'm not syncing it with anything. It's itself.
pinsky41	DB: When you save your files, do you have like a Dropbox account or anything like that?	[00:07:20]
pinsky42	RP: I do have a Dropbox account.
pinsky43	DB: So, you do have some sort of backup in the cloud?
pinsky44	RP: I have a Dropbox account and I have a 2 TB amazingly small little white brick—
pinsky45	DB: External hard drive?
pinsky46	RP: —that backs up automatically.
pinsky47	DB: How long have you been doing the backup procedures?
pinsky48	RP: For years. And I'd like to vilify the company—it's a sort of a French name—with a backup fail.
pinsky49	DB: Ugh. Really?
pinsky50	RP: My computer broke and the... They're called...
pinsky51	DB: It's not LaCie, is it? No?
pinsky52	RP: It may have been LaCie. Anyway, that can happen too.
pinsky53	DB: What happened there?
pinsky54	RP: Most stories about, "Oh, I lost my book on Yeats," or "Oh, I lost all this"—it's about 79% bullshit. Most of us have given the manuscript to somebody or have earlier drafts somewhere else. It's never pure loss. Like most things in life, it's a matter of degree.
pinsky55	DB: Yes. That's true. So, what was the loss there?
pinsky56	RP: I can't remember.
pinsky57	DB: You can't remember. It wasn't—
pinsky58	RP: I lost a bunch of data. I didn't lose anything that I couldn't recreate or find a different version of somewhere else.
pinsky59	DB: You sort of went through, in your first answer, many of these questions right here. It seems like you've been fairly adept at using a computer for most of the time. Have you sought out any instruction or has it just been something you've taught yourself?
pinsky60	RP: It's mostly something I've taught myself. "Adept" is a relative term compared to all the other writers and poets I know. I guess I'm adept compared to any 15-year-old. I try hard. And, you know, that first encounter—I've always liked gadgets. I never was good in school but I always liked learning a certain kind of thing and I guess I'm the type that tends not to like to read the instructions. I would rather figure it out. If there are two great personality types in the world, I tend to be the type that says, "If I can't figure it out, I don't want to do it." I don't want to have to read the instructions.
pinsky61	I did hang out with programmers when I wrote Mindwheel. As my introduction to computer technology, I did hear a certain amount of jargon. And sometimes, when technology is from a primitive state, you learn more about them than when they are more perfected. At one time, to drive a car, you had to know something about cars. People in the days of the term "hi-fi" had to know something about the process of recorded music. And as they improved the car and they improve recorded music, there's less and less anybody needs to know.
pinsky62	DB: I'm reminded of a story about the early MSN messenger wars. Did you read this? Where the AOL and the MSN people were going back and forth, trying to kind of copy each other's thing. And then the people at AOL started programming in, like, the basic, basic, basic level—called, I think, "operative processing," or something—and it's, like, huge, huge amounts of ones and zeros, essentially.
pinsky63	RP: The thing before assembly language.
pinsky64	DB: Yeah, exactly. So, you are way up there. Can you talk a little bit more about how that came about, how the Mindwheel came about? Were you at like a location that the programmers were near, or did they contact you specifically?
pinsky65	RP: I was sitting in my office at the University of California, Berkeley. I was very glad to be at Berkeley after the—for me, kind of tedious—Wellesley College, where I taught. I found Wellesley wasn't like going to jail, but it was a little New England Women's college. So I was very happy to be at Berkeley and that euphoria lasted for weeks and then Berkeley also came to seem very much like—how can I put this—an English department. And the phone rang and it was somebody named Ihor Wolosenko—the first person and the last person I have known named Ihor—Ihor Wolosenko from Synapse Software. And he said, "I'm looking for a writer to work on a new kind of computer product. Are you familiar with Text Adventures?" I said, "No." He said, "Are you familiar with computers?" I said, "No." He said, "Have you ever heard of a game called Zork?" I said, "No." He said, "It's a text that appears on the screen and you can go North or South or East or West, and you can pick up objects. It's a form of narrative. We have a very superior program. We can become more sophisticated than that. We are interested in serious literal writers who might write text for a game like that. Might you be interested?" I said, "Yes."	[00:11:45]
pinsky66	It was the first yes I had in the conversation. Synapse was in El Cerrito, which is quite close to Berkeley. I went out there and it was not an English department. There were these weird guys with their shirts half tucked-in. I later learned they lived on Big Macs and Van Houten bars. They slept in the day time and worked at night. They didn't pay for their phone service—they had different ways they could pirate phone service and had little machines that made long distance tones. The words that were most forbidden, it seemed, to them were not racial epithets or sexual terms or scatological terms. The forbidden words were words like nerd. liked them and I wrote up several scenarios for Ihor.
pinsky67	Cable Guy: Television's upstairs?
pinsky68	RP: Yeah, it is. Maybe I should help you find it. There are a couple of rooms up there.
pinsky69	DB: So, we were talking about Mindwheel. You went over to meet the programmers and you liked them quite well.	[00:21:10]
pinsky70	RP: I wrote up three or four different plots and the most far out one, modeled in a vague way on Dante, the comedian, was you are on a mission to travel through these minds. Four minds. It turns out that minds leave permanent elaborate footprints and records of themselves in what we call the "ether." I can't remember what I call it in the game itself. I always called it a game, and they always called it an "electronic novel." At the beginning Dr. Virgil puts the electrodes in your head and then you travel through the minds of a kind of Shakespeare/Dante figure; a kind of political rock figure, vaguely John Lennon like; a woman who is kind of an Einstein. And then a great dictator, a kind of a Stalin/Hitler/Mussolini mind.
pinsky71	DB: You could chose your own adventure kind of thing?
pinsky72	RP: No. It's more "interactive," they called it. You needed to solve problems. Some of them involved poetry.
pinsky73	DB: Did you come up with the poetry problems?
pinsky74	RP: Yes, or I would adopt ones from 16th century poetry. There was one riddle—you have to free a winged woman from a cage, and the cage is the riddle. It comes from Sir Walter Raleigh's poem "On the Cards and Dice," and it says, "An herald strange, the like was never born, whose very beard is flesh and mouth is horn." You had to solve that riddle. And the Raleigh poem which is there, it's about the Cards and Dice, and it says, "The trump will be heard and dead bones will jump up, will be rattled and men will groan and four kings will be gathered and four queens." So, it sounds like a mystic prophesy, but it's the cards and dice. Then it says they do this until a "herald" calls—"an herald strange, the like was never born, whose very beard is flesh and mouth is horn." I can see your flunking this.
pinsky75	DB: I'm totally flunking this.
pinsky76	RP: They play all night.
pinsky77	DB: Oh!...I'm still flunking this.
pinsky78	RP: Something wakes them up in the morning.
pinsky79	DB: The rooster?
pinsky80	RP: Yeah. The rooster's beard is flesh, his mouth is horned. And the rooster's not born, it's hatched. And that was an insult when I was a kid: you weren't born, you were hatched.
pinsky81	DB: So, you incorporated a lot of things into that. I'm interested in kind of like how that physically happened, too? Did you write that out on your Selectrics and then send them the text?
pinsky82	RP: Selectric didn't appear in it. I wrote it on the Atari.
pinsky83	DB: You wrote it on the Atari? Okay.
pinsky84	RP: As I said, for a good period, I was one of the few people in the country who was writing everything I was writing to read off a screen on a computer, and everything I was writing to read on paper on paper. The Times asked me to review a book of prose by Philip Larkin. I was having a little trouble getting started with it and I had been writing this very fluid Bubble World of computer. I couldn't get started on the Larkin so I decided I'll experiment. I'll see if I can write the lead on the computer, on the monochrome, because it's so much less real than a pen or the typewriter.	[00:24:20]
pinsky85	I wound up writing a draft of the whole fucking review on the Atari. I can't print it out. They weren't Dot Matrix printers over there at Synapse but I liked visiting Synapse anyway. And I did have—you may never have even seen one of these—I did have the 5.25" floppies.
pinsky86	DB: Oh yeah.
pinsky87	RP: That's why they're called "floppies." Those things were floppy. They were flexible. I'm not sure if email was much used at the time. I didn't email to Synapse. I drove over to El Cerrito, to that office park where Synapse had its offices, right next to an old company named Pixel. I used my 5.25" floppy to print out my book review. And it dawned on me, "You're going to have to get a printer. In fact, you are going to have to get a better computer." So, within, I can't remember, probably a few weeks, I had a jerky, junkie Dot Matrix printer and what we used to call a PC clone—IBM clone—called a Corona. I think it was made in Italy, oddly enough. That was probably 1981, 1980, or something. It was quite early.
pinsky88	DB: You were already on your second computer by early ‘80s?
pinsky89	RP: The first one I owned and the second one I was using.
pinsky90	DB: Second one you were using. Just going back to the impetus for getting that first computer—was it from Synapse?
pinsky91	RP: They gave me the Atari.
pinsky92	DB: They gave you the Atari. Okay.
pinsky93	RP: Yeah.
pinsky94	DB: When you were writing for them, would you—?
pinsky95	RP: It's all electronic. The programmers would take their assembly language and the program they invented—William Mataga and later Cathryn Mataga. William invented this program called BTZ—Better Than Zork. I remember William was the sort of over-programmer, and the personal one—my partner—was Steve Hales. It says on the package of Mindwheel, "Mindwheel: Electronic Novel by Robert Pinsky, writer; William Mataga and Steve Hales, programmers."	[00:27:25]
pinsky96	The package is a hard cover book. The product is just a floppy. I remember my first conference with Steve. He said, "I want you to describe your world to me," and then we had these interesting philosophical discussions of rooms and space, and scenes and time. Did we think of the scene happening in a room? Or of the room happening in a scene? There were some interesting conversations. Dialogue tables and things like that.
pinsky97	DB: Can we move back a little bit? Before all this, like when you were in your early writing career—would you say it was right around the time when you went to Stanford? When you sort of started writing? I've read some of the interviews and some of the—
pinsky98	RP: Yeah. I thought of myself as a writer when I was at Rutgers as an undergraduate. I was a beatnik wannabe. I was writing. I was writing poems. I was editor of the undergraduate literary magazine.
pinsky99	DB: Oh cool.
pinsky100	RP: So, no. I had a writing life.
pinsky101	DB: Okay, when you were starting off, what were your practices like? Did you keep notebooks?	[00:29:45]
pinsky102	RP: I have never kept notes. I'm not a note maker. I would get an idea for a poem and I would write it. I remember for awhile I shared an apartment with Alan Cheuse, novelist. He does book reviews for NPR. Alan is a year ahead of me and Alan is a fiction writer. I could remember hearing his typewriter going tick, tick, tick. I was sitting there, maybe with a paper and pen thinking, trying out different phrases in my mind and sort of ending that tick, tick, tick.
pinsky103	DB: Has it been since that time and throughout that you've always kind of felt it as a sort of voiced-oral thing in your head before anything?
pinsky104	RP: I got more and more confident then. But yes. I felt that was my métier. What I could do that I felt not everybody could do had to do with the sounds of sentences like that thing we just watched on TV. The sounds of sentences—the way vowels and consonants work together, the way a short sentence relates to a long sentence.
pinsky105	DB: How did you come to figure out that you could do that better than other people?
pinsky106	RP: Probably in the course of college. But I remember that as a kid I would try to tap out the rhythm of sentences with my fingers. I thought about things like voiced and unvoiced consonants before I knew the word for them. I had been thinking about the difference between the ‘th' in "the" and the ‘th' in thin. "The"—you use your voice box. "Thin"—you don't. I wasn't sure...it seems like a bad habit in a way. But I thought about the sense of words. So, it's not a surprise to me that I was good at it when I discovered there was an art based on such things.	[00:31:12]
pinsky107	DB: I guess the question is then how you kind of developed? You had that sort of innate talent. What were the steps you took to develop that talent?
pinsky108	RP: Reading. I had great teachers. My freshman English teacher was Paul Fussell, and he asked us to read ABC of Reading by Ezra Pound. I read Yeats and Eliot and Ginsberg and Bishop. And I recognized the way the sounds of words were doing things in those writers. William Carlos Williams and William Butler Yeats and Emily Dickinson. I was less interested in the differences among them than the thing I saw going on in all of them. I was interested by that thing.
pinsky109	DB: Yes. That's such a better way to get into it. When you started to kind of compose the poems and they became more important to you personally but also important to your career and moving forward, what were the ways you were working on them? Were they always kind of appearing in your head? You'd write them down by hand and then type them up for other people? What was the process there?
pinsky110	RP: I've had these ideas floating around in my head for a long time. A certain sense of ideas, like "humble things have histories." "What were the first things you ever saw made out of plastic in your own life?" Cheap shit from Japan after the war—toys mostly. Plastic soldiers, metal soldiers, saw dust soldiers. During a war, you couldn't get them. So I would think about those substances.
pinsky111	Those ideas, that set of ideas about different materials. That's all just thoughts. At the same time, I'd be mixing up my own personal history. The time I left some sawdust soldiers—pressed-wood soldiers—out overnight and they swelled-up. And then a completely other set of ideas that might involve war and the fascination of war. I had an uncle who was in the "Battle of The Bulge." He was a radio man, and I remember being very tiny and being fascinated by his massive boots. He's wearing the boots and I'm on the rug, touching those big boots. And none of that's the poem. That's memories, thoughts, ideas. And then the poem is when you start putting some sounds together. Something unnatural about the way a sawdust soldier will swell in the rain, unlike the boots of my uncle.
pinsky112	It's not an existing poem by the way. I can give a little demo. The poem starts when you start thinking about the vowels and consonants. With "uncle"—you rearrange the consonants. "Unclean" and "calendar." "The calendar of childhood." Then the time between the day that you find out wooden soldiers get ruined and the day that your mother and grandmother both dreamed that Julian was in trouble, and negligent memories of unclean...blah, blah, blah. That's the material.
pinsky113	DB: Yes. That's the material. I guess the purpose of these interviews is kind of to think about how that material becomes the book in all its iterations, and how that has changed over the course of time as to how many computers you think you've owned, how many different writing devices. Stuff like that. If you compose it in your head, does that mean you have whole poems in your head before you write them down?	[00:38:13]
pinsky114	RP: Sometimes, but more often I'll get enough lines to want to make a draft. So I'll write them down and I'll look at those and recite to myself the different things I've written down, and then I'll decide to type it into a document that I can print out. And then I'll read that over and maybe get a new idea.
pinsky115	DB: What was that like in the early '70s/late '60s?
pinsky116	RP: Pre-computer?
pinsky117	DB: Yeah.
pinsky118	RP: Something came out of the typewriter that has a lot of ballpoint all over it. Now it comes out of a laser printer and it has felt pen in all over it.
pinsky119	DB: When you're actually doing the writing-down, you say you don't really usually use notebooks or anything. What is it you are writing on? Is it just bare paper?
pinsky120	RP: Yeah. My favorite kind of paper is very hard to get. I'm forced to use this because it's very hard to get this. I don't like the lines.
pinsky121	DB: Yeah, that's interesting.
pinsky122	RP: I get that somehow society doesn't take this very seriously anymore. You can get it white, I don't want it white.
pinsky123	DB: You want it yellow?
pinsky124	RP: I want it yellow.
pinsky125	DB: I think that is the best, color-wise—yellow and black, or some sort of yellow as the background is the best.
pinsky126	RP: Yes. Yellow and black is somehow a little more fluid than black and white. Black and white feels sort of legal, or reductive.
pinsky127	DB: Have you been working with blank yellow paper if you can, since—?	[00:38:18]
pinsky128	RP: Yes. We haven't talked much about prose. I can remember working on prose and going through lots and lots of different processes, technologically. White-out of course. But I can remember before the IBM liftoff, I can remember using—and they even made it double-space, or sort of single-space, I believe—correction tape. So, you could take a passage that you wanted to change and you glue the tape down and you might use a Xerox machine. You would do white out so the tape didn't leave a tell tale grey outline. I can remember kind of thick, palimpsest pages where I had done that on some piece of prose.
pinsky129	DB: And that would build-up and build-up until you got it to...where?
pinsky130	RP: I think with the early drafts of The Situation of Poetry, I was still at that stage of the tape and the white out, and I'm probably forgetting a couple of other things I did to save having to retype something. Now, I've met an editor who said she thinks prose declined—people started writing much more poorly—when the computer made it so easy to insert passages. That it led people—rather than concentrating on editing and cutting and sculpting their prose—to insert. That every sentence got a little bloated.
pinsky131	DB: In terms of that same process, how do you think that affected poetry, and maybe yours specifically?	[00:40:10]
pinsky132	RP: I think poetry took an unproductive turn when people fell in love with the technology of the typewriter. Charles Olsen wrote very solemnly that with the new poet, you can count the spaces. Proportional spacing came along within a decade or two and made nonsense of that. To me, the graphic thing—people talk about lining endings quite a lot. I always feel, "No, I don't write line endings, I write lines" and it's the whole line. I guess you could say I'm kind of an extremist and very resistant to the visual idea of the poem. Different technologies give people the illusion that poetry is a form of graphics, and I guess for them it is.
pinsky133	For me, the unique quality of poetry is that it is vocal. It's on a human scale. It comes out of one person's body one syllable at a time. There doesn't have to be anybody else around—I'm not talking about poetry readings or performances. I'm talking about things very similar to the Favorite Poem Project videos. So, with technology, the most important thing yet to be done—and it's amazing to me it hasn't been done yet...
pinsky134	I was at Chancellor at the Academy of American Poets and they brought to us, very proudly—first chancellors to see—somebody who had made a program where the words of a poem can scroll and jump around. You see words do that on TV ads every day! It's banal. Why don't they correct the fact that still, I think, FSG won't publish poems in an electronic e-book edition because, somehow, nobody has come up with a way to preserve the integrity of the lines. It seems to me you could get a team of programmers to do that in a couple of days.
pinsky135	DB: I am also baffled by it.
pinsky136	RP: Probably going to happen tomorrow. But at the moment it's in this ridiculous stage where it hasn't happened. On the other hand, Horace didn't have visual lines. They didn't make spaces between the words. They wanted to save parchment or wax or papyrus or stone. Whatever they were using. So, you could figure out where the lines were because the rhythms were so strong.
pinsky137	DB: And you have a very strong sense—you and, like, James McMichaels, sort of, too—have that strong sort of oral sense of poetry and are very dedicated to it. Did that come out of working with Winters? Or did that come out of kind of an innate sense of what you were doing from the beginning?
pinsky138	RP: I think there were some moment when I was reading "Howl" and "Sailing to Byzantium" and Dickinson, and I felt this reality in those things that was different from the reality of Alan's typewriter going staccato. It was different from the reality of reading Ulysses or Dubliners. That was a very powerful reality produced by those rectangular blocks of print and the pages. This was more physical in some way. More bodily, let's say.
pinsky139	So it maybe made me ripe for Winters, and he certainly amplified it by inviting me to learn something about George Gascoigne, Fulke Greville, and Philip Sidney, ?Brohly?. But I think it happened when I was in my late teens still, and, you know, Gingsberg was obsessed by blank verse by Elliot, and he'd give himself these exercises in it. So, it was—as is Williams, in a completely different way—it was free verse that was intensely oral. William calls all those poems "metric figure," and obviously metric figure is about their attempts to write intense rhythms that are not iambic or blank verse.
pinsky140	DB: Yeah, and that move away from that is such an interesting part of the century.	[00:45:45]
pinsky141	I guess the kind of overarching question that I'm wondering is—and as a digital librarian and someone who is working in the digital new, who can't really remember ever not writing on a computer—when the computer came in, when the Atari came in, and when the screens started appearing in front of you and the ease of those deletions and insertions and re-arrangements became possible, did that change the way you worked? Did that change what you produced?
pinsky142	RP: I don't think it changed what I produced, but I think that it was the beginning of a different kind of archival anxiety. There is the archival anxiety about paperwork being preserved, given some manuscript or somebody else's manuscript being destroyed. I'm of a generation where I save magazines that I have work in—that's the old anxiety. And the new anxiety is the mortality of digital information. I can remember the Library of Congress saying to me that the only way to preserve digital material is to reproduce it. Unlike papyrus, it's mortal. It turns to mush. And that's aside from the fact that the medium keeps changing. The Favorite Poem Project videos—today I talked about somebody who is going to take the original digital tapes and make them into a current high definition format rather than the flash format they're in.
pinsky143	DB: They're in flash?
pinsky144	RP: Yeah, on the website. But the website will be enhanced. You'll to be able to make them full screen. For seven years I was in NewsHour with Jim Lehrer. When Frank Sinatra died, I read passages from Virgil about the death of a singer. When the stock market was in trouble, I read Frost's "Provide, Provide." At the time, the places I recorded those would give me dumps on VHS tape. Where are they? Where is that material? There's a lot of it. I anxious this has gone into the ether. I was a Poetry Editor for Slate for many years. They eventually found poetry was not bringing enough "hits," enough money and ads and things, so they stopped doing it. To preserve it for awhile, there were years when I would do a poem out-of-copyright, a classic poem. I'd do, say, an early poem by Marianne Moore.
pinsky145	DB: It's how I was introduced to Fulke Greville.
pinsky146	RP: So I did those. I was shocked to learn that, unlike almost everything, like all kinds of pornography and ads and stuff, they're gone. They're irretrievable. Those discussions—and so many are with well known poets and critics taking part in them—they're gone. Vanished.
pinsky147	DB: What form? Were they written?
pinsky148	RP: They were in the fray, in the discussion part. I was responding to people.
pinsky149	DB: Oh, the comments actually below.
pinsky150	RP: So, something quite valuable that I put effort into vanished. Well, we all vanish, we all die. And most objects are described, and we don't know how long Shakespeare's reputation will last. You know, there's the large view, but there's also personal, temporal anxiety. One has mixed emotions when, you know—my papers are at Stanford. They bought up to a certain year of paper-papers, but a librarian at Stanford said to me, "I hope you're saving your email. I hope you're saving your electronic emails." There's a new anxiety there. What in there that I wouldn't want quoted will come out in a journal? So, there is the anxiety of what could be lost and the anxiety of what could be preserved that you don't want preserved. There is the anxiety of—the family level is only metaphor for the whole thing. I share some photographs with my great grandparents' generation and these are photographs of your grandparents' generation that you treasure. We all have a camera in our pocket. It shoots video. This little tiny sliver has access to almost all the information there is, and you can create more forthright information with almost no effort at all. Selfies, etcetera.
pinsky151	If you want your grand children to pay any attention to your family photos, you better edit them, because the future generation doesn't want to spend all day listening to grandpa say, "Hiya!" You better think about what time capsule you create. And as I say, that's only a metaphor for the larger question you're dealing with. In one of my poems, "The Forgetting"—
pinsky152	DB: Which book is that in?
pinsky153	RP: In Gulf Music, I say, Ezra Pound praised the emperor who appointed a committee of scholars to choose the advocate who has the 1,000 best Noh dramas and destroy the others for the good of the Noh. Ezra Pound approved of that, the fascist. So I was trying to express ambivalence about the winnowing process and the selecting process. The Library of Congress has to decide which sitcoms it will preserve, which commercials. Some of those commercials and sitcoms may be superior works of art to poetry by people who win the Pulitzer Prize. Who decides?	[00:51:35]
pinsky154	DB: Librarians.
pinsky155	RP: I guess you do.
pinsky156	DB: I'm right here, talk to me. What do you need? In terms of that winnowing process then, what do you think about your own—I'm sure you have uncollected works and stuff like that? How do you feel towards those now? And where do you store those? Are they in paper? In certain boxes? Are they in the papers at Stanford?
pinsky157	RP: The papers—every so often, I'll accumulate enough and shoot them off to Palo Alto. Electronically, I mean... As it happens, in the last few months, somebody—it happened twice, that a poem of mine that I didn't choose to put in the selected—somebody said to me, "This poem of yours means a lot to me." I remember the poem very well. It's a poem called "The Reasons." This person said, "It's a poem that, when I think about my ethnicity, the way you deal with ethnicity is very important to me." But I felt maybe I shouldn't put in the selected, and I didn't.
pinsky158	Then online, someone I have never met personally pointed to another poem because I'd published it in poetry magazine when I was in my 20s. It was on the Poetry magazine website, and she said how much she liked it. I looked it up and thought, "Pretty good." I'd never put it in any book. I had forgotten it entirely. So, I don't know how that's germane to your question, but it is germane, somehow.
pinsky159	DB: No, I think so.
pinsky160	RP: That there is no ultimate authority for that selection process, the author included.
pinsky161	DB: Ok. So you have these digital files that contain the poem and you've backed them up and you try to make sure they're okay. Do you feel some sort of "dearness" towards them? Or do you feel that they're sort of just a means to something else, somewhere else?	[00:54:28]
pinsky162	RP: A lot of it is mechanical. A lot of it is in reflecting. I have many, many folders. I'm sort of a quasi-organized person. So, under "Documents" in my hard drive—which is then backed up in my backup drive—under "Documents," there are many, many folders, letters from different years; prose. Probably thirty—I haven't counted them. There is one called "Drafts." In "Drafts," under sub-folders, for most poems there's that "DR1," "DR12," "DR14." I look at it and I sometimes feel the way I told you I feel about the family photographs. Nobody wants all this. Bishop has a poem about the umbrella that was so hard to make and the leather trousers, how they gave them to the local museum. How can anybody want such things? I'm sure she's thinking about drafts and memorabilia and so forth. It's just another anxiety. I can't say I think about it a lot, but I'm ambivalent when I think about all those megabytes of drafts. And two separate questions are: do I want anyone to look at them, and who could possibly want to look at them? But I don't destroy them and I do, somewhat mechanically, shoot the drafts into drafts. I guess part of the theory is I might want to look. And I suppose every once in many, many months, I do look.
pinsky163	DB: So you're saving each poem as a new draft? It's not, like, one poem with many drafts in it? It's just, with each poem, a new file, a new draft?
pinsky164	RP: A new folder. Each poem. Let's say the poem is called "The Mechanical Pencil." Then it'll have a name like "Mech Pencil," with an upper case M and P. So you'll have "Mech Pencil DR1.docx" or "Mech Pencil DR6.docx," "Mech Pencil 47"—and maybe not every single one is saved, but those are, and they're all going into that folder. In the main file, which is the next book—in whatever that folder is, you have the separate poems.
pinsky165	DB: When did you start using this sort of folder system?
pinsky166	RP: I can't remember when I started doing it.
pinsky167	DB: But it's been pretty consistent?
pinsky168	RP: Probably since I started using a computer.
pinsky169	DB: Do you feel like you kind of envision the poems in that way? When you are thinking about them later, does that ever pop into your mind?
pinsky170	RP: When I think about the poem I think about it in my book or as part of my poetry reading. Or, if I'm in a particularly grandiose and hopeful state, I picture somebody reading it the way that people in the Favorite Poem Project—you know, the way Seph Rodney reads Plath's "Nick and the Candlestick."	[00:58:22]
pinsky171	DB: Yeah. I was watching the South Boston—
pinsky172	RP: Oh, the kid.
pinsky173	DB: John—
pinsky174	RP: John Ulrich.
pinsky175	DB: Yeah, John Ulrich.
pinsky176	RP: He reads Gwendolyn Brooks' "We Real Cool."
pinsky177	DB: I was struck by how much I wanted to know how he's doing. I was interested in him. I mean the poem is great and everything, but it just made me, like—
pinsky178	RP: Last I heard he was doing okay.
pinsky179	DB: I hope so. Good. So, I guess I'm a little unclear as to what your revision process is like. I think I have a sense of how the compositions happen. But then when you have, say, most of the poem ready—like when you're moving from drafts 020 to 021—what are you doing in between there?	[00:59:00]
pinsky180	RP: Print-out. Write on the printout.
pinsky181	DB: Are you reading it out loud?
pinsky182	RP: See if you have the poem by memory. Turn the light off while going to sleep and try to recite the poem. If you come to a part you don't have memorized, maybe that's the part you need to work on. Not reliably, but sometimes.
pinsky183	DB: Do you have an intention in doing that? Is each poem different, or—?
pinsky184	RP: Yeah. My intention is to make it worth somebody getting by heart, or wanting to read to their friend, or wanting to recite to themselves on a hike or when they are driving—do whatever it is that poems do.
pinsky185	DB: What happens when a poem doesn't realize that? How do you know that a poem is not going to get there?
pinsky186	RP: In my case, you keep working. Very rarely, you abandon it—usually some part of it that's working gets incorporated into the next poem, or into some future poem.
pinsky187	DB: So, you kind of take parts and move them around?
pinsky188	RP: Yes. You use it the way Cubans do parts of sugar lace.
pinsky189	DB: Do other people kind of work into this process?
pinsky190	RP: Yeah, I have friends. Louise sees what I write. Alan sees what I write. And maybe Gail Mazur. Different times of my life there have been different friends—always somebody around. Jim Olson. Sometimes I email things to Jim.
pinsky191	DB: At what stage do these people usually come in?
pinsky192	RP: Fairly late.
pinsky193	DB: To kind of get a reaction or something like that? Was the translation work and using the computer and these sort of processes fundamentally different?	[01:01:10]
pinsky194	RP: It was rather similar. Felt pen. I would print-out whatever canto I was working on, so: two or three pieces of paper, maybe one piece of paper. I had everything I needed. And then it was the metrical game.
pinsky195	DB: You described that in one of the interviews I've read as sort of intensely pleasurable sort of work. What kept you drawing you back to it?
pinsky196	RP: It's why kids play video games. It's why guys play golf. It's a difficulty that you become addicted to. You become entranced by the difficulty. Like people who need to do the New York Times crossword puzzle every day. It's that part of the mind that loves to solve difficulties—or, let's not say "solve"—engage a certain kind of difficulty. Because the video games offer infinite... You can't ever solve it. You can get better at it, making those consonantal rhyme tercets and pentameters. And always compressing—I use fewer words in that translation than any other translation, prose or verse. Never pad to get a rhyme. Compress to get a rhyme. That was the rule. And it became what a jigsaw puzzle is for somebody who loves jigsaw puzzles. What a video game is for somebody who loves video games. It became absorbing.
pinsky197	DB: How long did that project last?
pinsky198	RP: It was a year to get through the Inferno ones, and almost another year to revise.
pinsky199	DB: I read that you worked on a revision with Frank Bidart some, too?
pinsky200	RP: Yes. We put a lot of effort into that.
pinsky201	DB: So you have the individual poems that you work on, but then how do you get them into a book?
pinsky202	RP: There's a folder called "Book.pms" and it acquires a name, and the book acquires a title, but that's the next book of poems. In that folder right now, there's a file called—I think—"Book29." That is, it's the 29th draft when I bother to have a contents page, which Nisus Writer does very well. A contents page, page numbers, and the order that the poems are in. That order will change, but it's what I have with me if I go somewhere to give a poetry reading, and it's a file. It's a folder.	[01:03:40]
pinsky203	DB: How do you construct your orders?
pinsky204	RP: I guess it's different for each book. I'm not sure how to answer. It's intuitive.
pinsky205	DB: Does it have some sort of phrasing to it? I mean, is it musical in that sense?
pinsky206	RP: I hope ideas and feelings get introduced. I hope then they get developed and amplified and explained, and then I hope new elements come in, in the course of that process. At the same time, one recognizes that a good number of readers don't read the poems in order—some people like to start in the middle, some people start at the end. But for those who want to see something in the order, Gulf Music starts with a kind of peculiar title poem. It says, "This is not going to be easy. It's going to involve the newspaper, and it's not going to take certain conventional routes for political poetry."	[01:05:00]
pinsky207	DB: I found the ordering and construction of Gulf Music to be very unusual. I was just sort of thinking about it being just unlike most things that come out now.
pinsky208	RP: I thought about it a lot. I did want to make it something distinctive, and it starts with the most ghazal-like thing in the book.
pinsky209	DB: Yeah. Are you on draft 29 of the current book?
pinsky210	RP: Yes.
pinsky211	DB: Is that where you are at?
pinsky212	RP: Yes.
pinsky213	DB: This is just for me, but do you know when—?
pinsky214	RP: I'm on leave next year. I hope that before the year is over, I'll have the book.
pinsky215	DB: How has teaching influenced the way you write? Has it done much? Or has it sort of been the way that you support the time that you get to do the writing?	[01:06:40]
pinsky216	RP: It's not an easy question to answer. I'm proud—it's an honorable profession, and I think I've probably helped more people than I've hurt people. And my students seem to be getting something out of what I do as a teacher. I guess they help when I ask them to make anthologies. So, I guess among other things, they help me have a sense of what is currently esteemed. Change has a frightening morbidity—every two or three years the canon is very different.
pinsky217	DB: Has that rate increased in more recent years, now that the internet has kind of made things more available?
pinsky218	RP: I'm not sure. It could be, or it could be just that as I get older I'm more disturbed by it, or delighted by it, or something. But it certainly does suggest that the wheel of fashion spins along pretty well.
pinsky219	DB: I guess there are other questions about your correspondence, and I know you talked about the anxiety of saving emails and stuff like that. But before, were you a big physical letter writer?
pinsky220	RP: I used to write a lot of letters. They used to be a way I would warm up. But I remember when I was working on The Situation of Poetry, I would warm up with a routine where first I'd write a letter or two, maybe three, and that would somehow make me feel I was working. Then, to glide into working on a poem or in that prose project—it was somehow made easier. And, I used to get a lot of letters, and I used to send a lot of letters. I still do once in awhile, but electronic has taken over.
pinsky221	DB: Can you point to a time when that sort of wave overtook?
pinsky222	RP: I think in the late '80s or early '90s. People you think would never adapt to email adapted to email. It became more and more of a lingua franca. And it became the agora, it became where people met. And the generation that only did paper correspondence got old and died, to be blunt about it.
pinsky223	DB: Do you find that it is a different genre?
pinsky224	RP: Different conventions.
pinsky225	DB: Yeah.
pinsky226	RP: I must say that when I see letters I wrote long ago, I wince. I don't like it.
pinsky227	DB: Why not?
pinsky228	RP: It's either naiveté, or there is falseness, or there is clumsiness. To write a good letter, in a way, you have to not think about how you are sounding or looking. It should be ephemeral, it should be at the moment. But then to have it preserved for 20 years? It's a little disturbing.
pinsky229	DB: Do you think that there is more of an awareness of that with email?
pinsky230	RP: I think email is probably more unconscious. I was joking with you about my friend who says scandalous things in emails, and I repeatedly tell him, "Look out!" Things you read in the newspaper where in some business setting or political setting, people get nailed. The email trail. It may be generationally something is changing. I think people say things in email they wouldn't say "in writing" because they don't think of it as having as much permanence, and sometimes it surprises them.
pinsky231	DB: Yeah. My first job out of college as a paralegal, I just looked through email after email for "Hot Docs," as they were called.
pinsky232	RP: And hitting "delete"—
pinsky233	DB: It doesn't do it.
pinsky234	RP: No it doesn't. It doesn't shred it.
pinsky235	DB: So, kind of more overall, do you think the advent of the computer and the rise of the computer in your practice has changed things fundamentally? What if you were still working with your IBM Selectric?
pinsky236	RP: Publication is different. We've been talking about production, and production has changed somewhat for me. Probably not as much as many people. Probably because I've been doing it so long with a computer and because poetry for me is vocal. Publication is in a midst of some kind of tremendous transition. I don't think anybody knows where it's going, exactly. I recently spent a few days in New York. It's pleasing to see the people with a book in the subway, a magazine or a newspaper, but most people who are looking at something are looking at the screen. I'm surprised how many are looking at tablets. Lots are looking at phones—a certain number are playing games, a certain number are checking their email, a certain number are listening to music and looking at something that goes with the music. How many are reading? I don't know. But at the moment, if a magazine tells you they want to put something in their web page rather than print and you feel it as their second level of affection for this—that maybe shifting.	[01:11:45]
pinsky237	DB: Yeah. I wonder about that too. I feel like it's right on that cusp.
pinsky238	RP: I think it's all very fluent, and we don't know—and I don't think anybody really is quite sure—what's going to happen next. I guess one has to not think about it too much.
pinsky239	DB: Yeah. Unless you have to make those decisions, sure. Your point about the formatting and about them not figuring that out yet—
pinsky240	RP: That's going to happen soon.
pinsky241	DB: But I mean, even in HTML, even if you see your poems get put up there, there are so many easy problems that people just don't know how to fix, because there are so many different levels of expertise.
pinsky242	RP: It used to drive me crazy on Slate when an ad would disrupt a poem.
pinsky243	DB: Yeah. Like break the line in a weird way or something like that? Maybe a famous poem?
pinsky244	RP: Are we almost done?
pinsky245	DB: Yes.
pinsky246	RP: I'm getting a little worn out.
pinsky247	DB: I think we're done.
pinsky248	RP: Good.
pinsky249	DB: Okay. Thank you very much, Robert.
pinsky250	RP: It's great and it was fun. A smart thing to be going into.
pinsky251	DB: We'll see.
pinsky252	end of audio	[01:14:31]
ryan1	Devin Becker: Here we are. It's March 18th and this is an interview with Michael Ryan. Okay-the interview kind of has two parts. The first part I just sort of ask about your current practices. It's based on the survey Collier and I did for an article about two years ago of like younger poets and how they work with digital media. So those are meant to be sort of short answer, just about how you save, how you type, stuff like that. Then, we'll kind of talk more about the arc of your career and different ways your process has changed or not changed in accordance with history, technology, culture. So if you don't mind, please state your name, date of birth, and where we are.	[00:00:00]
ryan2	Michael Ryan: Michael Ryan, 24th of February 1946, and I believe we're in Irvine, California.
ryan3	DB: Okay. This is kind of how you work currently. What genres do you work in as a writer?
ryan4	MR: I write prose and poetry, essays, nonfiction, and mostly poems.
ryan5	DB: So you're primary genre is poetry then?
ryan6	MR: Yeah.
ryan7	DB: I know these answers. Some of these will be repetitive and if it's like, you're like, "Okay, I answered that," just tell me.
ryan8	MR: That's fine.
ryan9	DB: Okay. What kinds of devices do you own or have access to for your writing, in terms of computer devices?
ryan10	MR: I have a desktop computer and an iPad. I don't use the iPad much, but sometimes for internet stuff.
ryan11	DB: Do you have a desktop computer here? Do you have one also at your office that you work on?
ryan12	MR: I don't use it.
ryan13	DB: You don't use it?
ryan14	MR: Yeah.
ryan15	DB: Okay. So, that's your main computer for composing?
ryan16	MR: That's it.
ryan17	DB: That's it?
ryan18	MR: Pretty much, yeah.
ryan19	DB: What operating system are you using?
ryan20	MR: Microsoft Word.
ryan21	DB: Is it a PC or a MAC?
ryan22	MR: It's a PC.
ryan23	DB: It's a PC, okay. Do you use computers exclusively for your work or do you use both physical and digital environments?
ryan24	MR: What does that mean?
ryan25	DB: I mean, do you work on paper and digitally? Do you go back and forth, or are you at the point where you work primarily on the computer?
ryan26	MR: I draft poems by hand and then I'll go back to the computer and go sometimes back and forth. Prose, I write on the computer.
ryan27	DB: Okay. At which point-if you're writing by hand-do you move to the computer?
ryan28	MR: Yeah, it depends. Just it seems to be finished enough to make a typed copy.
ryan29	DB: Okay. Do you have any prewriting or notes to these things or are they usually-?
ryan30	MR: Yeah, again, it depends on the piece. They're all very different, but sometimes there are a lot of notes, sometimes there's not much. I don't usually take notes on the computer. I usually will do that by hand.
ryan31	DB: Do you save those prewriting notes, the physical copies? Do you keep them somewhere or-?
ryan32	MR: I keep everything, yeah. My papers are at the University of Virginia. Theoretically, someday I should be sending what's accumulated to them.
ryan33	DB: How do you save your digital files, like your poem files, etc?	[00:04:06]
ryan34	MR: I try to do them in terms of the draft numbers. Like, I will save the title. Sometimes, I'll put the date if it seems germane, but I will put numbers so that the first draft that goes on the computer is "1," and so forth.
ryan35	DB: Do you save them all in one folder? What's the folder system like? Are you saving them in just, like, "Poetry Folder"?
ryan36	MR: Yeah, no, just one. Currently, it's "Poems 2012-" because that was when I finished my last book of poems. So they're kind of arranged by book.
ryan37	DB: Once you have the poem on a computer, do you ever print it out to revise it that way?	[00:05:02]
ryan38	MR: Yes.
ryan39	DB: Do you save paper copies of those drafts?
ryan40	MR: Yeah. Well, usually. I can get sloppy about it, but I try to save most.
ryan41	DB: How do you do that? Do you put them in files? Do you put them in boxes?
ryan42	MR: My office is filled with stacks of brown boxes, as you might remember. It's all a big mess and a big pile.
ryan43	DB: Some lucky archivist someday will have several months of work.
ryan44	MR: Yeah. Lucky, or perhaps not so lucky.
ryan45	DB: Were there also like brown bags too, or was it just boxes? I feel like I remember paper bags-?
ryan46	MR: No, there were not brown bags.
ryan47	DB: They were boxes? My memory-
ryan48	MR: That's a screened memory, Devin. You think I'm sloppier that I already am.
ryan49	DB: I picture you with grisly bags full of your working drafts.
ryan50	MR: It's pathetic, but not quite that pathetic.
ryan51	DB: I know. Do you back up your digital copies? Do you put them on a hard drive somewhere else, or any of that?
ryan52	MR: No, I hope it has a back up system on it-I think it does. I think it backs it up automatically.
ryan53	DB: Okay. Are you using something like Dropbox or any of those kind of cloud things?
ryan54	MR: No, I'm not.
ryan55	DB: Okay. Once you're finished with the poem, how do you save that finished piece? Does that go into a manuscript file? What happens once you feel like the poem is done?
ryan56	MR: Well again, when it's done, it's just number whatever, "15," of that particular poem, and it just stays in that folder until it's time for a book. And then, I will transfer the latest final draft of everything into some other place, so that it's just the final drafts. Then, there's always galleys and proofread stuff, and so that becomes a separate folder.
ryan57	DB: Okay. That's the quick digital beginning part of it. Now, we'll kind of talk with larger scope. How long have you been writing professionally, is the first question? By professionally, I mean in a way that you are sort of supporting yourself or that it has led to jobs or something like that.
ryan58	MR: The first poem I published was in 1970. So, 44 years.	[00:07:55]
ryan59	DB: What was your first poem?
ryan60	MR: Actually, the first published poem that was in my first book was 1970, but before that there were a couple. But the first one and the oldest poem in my New and Selected is a poem called "Hitting Fungoes."
ryan61	DB: Yeah, I like that one. Would you please describe the arc of your career, like kind of education all the way through what your current kind of position?
ryan62	MR: I've been teaching all of that time.
ryan63	DB: I mean, even before that, like your kind of education leading up to that too.
ryan64	MR: When I went to Notre Dame, there weren't any writing workshops. I was an English major and I was interested in being-I was the editor of the literary magazine at Notre Dame when I was a senior there, and I wrote extremely bad undergraduate poems. I then went to Claremont graduate school and Claremont here, and was going to get a PhD in English and was writing poems all of that time, and decided to leave after three semesters, and dropped out, went to Cambridge, lived with some friends and I worked in a bookstore in Harvard Square.
ryan65	There's a funny story about after I quit at Claremont. I was sort of a lame duck there. It was during the time of the Cambodia invasion and it was a very charged political time. I had gone through Iowa City and expected that since I was a poet, all the faculty on the workshop would want to read my poems. Kindly, George Starbuck met with me and I handed him a manuscript of poems and he put it in his desk drawer. We just talked for a few minutes. That was it and I left. After I quit the PhD program at Claremont, I got a letter from George Starbuck saying "You're accepted to the workshop. Why don't you apply?"
ryan66	DB: That's nice.
ryan67	MR: Wasn't it?
ryan68	DB: Yeah.
ryan69	MR: A miracle. Never could happen now, or come close to such a thing. But anyways, he was a sweet man and apparently saw something in my poems. So then I went to Iowa from 19970-1974. I got an MFA there. I couldn't get a job after getting an MFA, so they kindly offered to put me up for another year. I worked in the Iowa Review as a poetry editor. But they said, "If you're going to stay, you have to go back in the PhD program because we have to have a way to give you graduate aid."	[00:10:57]
ryan70	So I did that, and worked on the Iowa Review. Still couldn't get a job after the next year. The fourth year, or between that and the summer after my third year, I got a call from the Yale University Press saying I won the Yale Series of Younger Poets, and so I went back to Iowa for a fourth year and finished up my PhD. They put me on the faculty for my last semester there. When I went to Southern Methodist University from there for four years, I then directed the MFA program-which is now at Warren Wilson-while it was at Goddard, and while the director, Ellen Voigt, had her Guggenheim year. I was there two years, I guess. No-one year. And then I went to Princeton for two years, and to Charlottesville, Virginia at the University of Virginia as a visitor, and was also, mostly, at Warren Wilson for all those years. And then came here, and I've been here since 1991-University of California at Irvine.
ryan71	DB: All right.
ryan72	MR: Was that too long?
ryan73	DB: No-that's exactly what I'm looking for. I mean, just sort of, "This is what happened," you know? Now, I'm going to kind of ask you more specifically about your writing practice. I kind of delineated it into like three stages-the first being kind of like compositional prewriting generative stage, the second being the kind of revision stage, and then the third being the kind of organizational archival stage, by which I mean, like, when things are starting to be finished and your putting them into books, and then what you do with those publications and how you kind of work with that archival stuff. Does that make sense? If that matches up with your writing process enough to talk then-	[00:13:31]
ryan74	MR: Sort of.
ryan75	DB: Usually, it will just kind of go, and you'll probably answer questions that I have later, and we'll just go forward. So what I like to talk about is kind of like how you are writing initially in the beginning parts of your career, and then kind of to think about how that changed-if there were sort of significant changes, what those were, and stuff like that.
ryan76	DB: So, would you please describe kind of your typical compositional practices when you first started writing professionally, like at Iowa, and maybe a little past that area? How were you writing? Were you handwriting? Were you using a typewriter? Did you keep a notebook, things like that?
ryan77	MR: I don't think I kept a notebook in those days. When I went to Iowa, I was writing five poems a week. It was fun and easy-"Hey! This is easy!" And occasionally changing a word or two, and all by hand. I mean I would have to type it up at some point and that was on a typewriter in those days. A manual typewriter, I think. That changed in my second year there. I guess I just hit a wall and saw that I couldn't write the poem I wanted-or hoped to write-in one draft. And started multiple-drafting much more frequently, almost always. Most of the poems in my first book were written that way, and not the old way.	[00:15:00]
ryan78	DB: How did that work, like just nitty-gritty wise?
ryan79	MR: Well, again, it's always been going back and-I mean, it's mostly handwritten over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, starting from the beginning. I never have been able to do it any other way. First word first. First syllable first. All the way to the end. Sometimes, I will have a whole-in fact, in the happiest times-I will have a whole draft to work from. But there really isn't any way to formalize it because everyone's different. Every single piece I've ever written comes differently, has different problems. William Maxwell said he learned nothing about writing the next novel from writing the last one. It does feel to me sort of like I'm inventing the wheel every time out, and they just don't resemble each other. I have written poems in single drafts-not very often, but-I've also written 250 drafts of a poem and still not finished it, and it ends up in the brown box. I have finished poems that I started 25 years earlier, because for whatever reason-you know, my life is changed, I've changed a little, I hope-and I saw the solution to the problem, that was insoluble. It really is like doing problems, I think. At that stage of composition, at least. The ideas kind of that you get something that compels you. Isn't that how it is? It drives you through to it's finished, and that finish may take a while or not. It might take forms, there can be snags along the way. There can be endings that don't come, but it isn't linear-there are problems that occur. Structural problems, and so forth.	[00:16:10]
ryan80	DB: In terms of how this is going, kind of physically-you say you just write a draft and you never go back and cross it out? Or do you write another draft, and another draft, and another draft, all handwritten? I'm just trying to clarify.	[00:18:32]
ryan81	MR: No, I will cross things out, or write-in alternatives on the side.
ryan82	DB: On the one sheet of paper?
ryan83	MR: Yeah. I don't recopy the whole draft every single time-which I guess is what I indicated before-but not if it's just messing with tweaks. But sometimes the snag will get hit at line-whatever-5. Then, I will start all over again, or at line 25. I just have to have the whole thing in my head at a certain point, but rarely before a whole draft is there. I will go to the computer and type it up, and then it helps to see it printed-out. I don't work on the screen. I print it out and then work on it some more by hand.
ryan84	DB: Is the way that you do it with the computer now the same way that you used the typewriter?
ryan85	MR: Essentially. I mean, I guess maybe sometimes I do make little changes on the screen. You know, if I'm typing it up again or something, that will perhaps provoke-probably very minor-changes. Changing an article or-you know.
ryan86	DB: Yeah. But never anything very substantial.
ryan87	MR: Well usually not, is my recollection.
ryan88	DB: And the handwritten composition pieces, where do they exist, physically? Are they in a notebook? Are they on just regular pieces of paper, or-?	[00:20:28]
ryan89	MR: They're on yellow-well, actually I do have two things. You're making me see how idiosyncratic I am. I guess everybody probably is. What I do is I take a piece of white typing paper-usually it has something written on the other side of it-I will fold it in half, and I will start writing on one side of it. And, you know, if that goes on-if it's longer than that-I will go to the other side. And then when I have to store them, I will shove them together, you know, in a way that they can be folded-in inside, and the latest one will be on top. But also, I will write on yellow pads, and that'll come into the process. And then there are the typed sheets. It all sounds pretty chaotic when I say it, or really compulsive.
ryan90	DB: But is it usually that progression? It starts on typing paper, moves to the yellow sheets, and then to the computer?
ryan91	MR: Well, it varies. Sometimes, there are no yellow sheets. But I will never start composing a poem on the typewriter, or on a computer. Ever. That doesn't happen. It's all by hand. So it always goes that way.
ryan92	DB: In terms of your prose work, does that start on the computer?	[00:22:13]
ryan93	MR: Yeah. For some reason, I can write prose on the computer-and prefer to write it on the computer-because I will change a lot as I am writing. But why that would be specific and, you know, so distinct from one to the other, is a mystery to me. Maybe just because that I originally wrote prose by hand, too. I only stopped writing it by hand, I think, about 20 years ago. I think I wrote Secret Life on the computer.	[00:22:16]
ryan94	DB: On the computer?
ryan95	MR: Maybe when computers came in.
ryan96	DB: That was sort of what led to more writing?
ryan97	MR: I think mostly, yeah. That was in the '80s. I had one of those enormous things with a huge processor.
ryan98	DB: Did you note a difference once you weren't using the typewriter anymore and you moved to the computer?
ryan99	MR: Well, one great thing about it was that you could make changes, and you didn't have to retype the whole thing, which is what you had to do before that.
ryan100	DB: And had you composed prose longhand? I mean, did you ever do that?
ryan101	MR: Yes. Most of the essays in my book of essays, which was published in 2000, were composed longhand.
ryan102	DB: And those essays, though, were they written earlier? I'm assuming much earlier than 2000?
ryan103	MR: Quite a few of them were, but maybe the last ones in it were composed on a computer-that's, in fact, likely.
ryan104	DB: So, the computer came in in kind of the late '80s-did you notice, as computers got more powerful, did anything change then? Or does it feel basically the same since the first time?	[00:24:23]
ryan105	MR: Well that first time, before you were born-
ryan106	DB: No, I was born.
ryan107	MR: Yeah but they, you know, they were so slow. But at that time, it seemed like magic, just that being able to change it. So yeah, of course it has changed. Everything has accelerated-you can look up stuff, look up definitions of words. I would often write with a dictionary. I never have called a poem finished before I looked up most of the words in the poem. I like to see how the etymologies work in relationship to one another before I call something "finished." Now you can do a lot of that on the computer.
ryan108	DB: And now have you moved from using physical dictionaries to-?
ryan109	MR: I still have them. They are next to my chair upstairs. I still like to do that. But yeah, I'm not systematic about it. I'll look up things on the computer, too.
ryan110	DB: Okay. And so when you first started using the computer, were you also always printing out? You never really worked on the screen even in the early days?
ryan111	MR: Yes.
ryan112	DB: So now we're going to move kind of the revision section-we're talking about both, and that's fine.
ryan113	MR: Okay.
ryan114	DB: So you spoke some about your revision practices when you first started as being fairly small. What was it prompted this sort of the change to move into a more robust revision strategy?	[00:26:40]
ryan115	MR: Well, the poem that I wanted-needed, or could see-to write couldn't be written in a single draft. So I guess I'd get something that felt rich enough, and compelling enough, to keep pounding. And that did seem to create a sort of breakthrough for me.
ryan116	DB: Did you learn this revision technique? Did other people influence you in developing this, or was it something that you kind of built on your own?
ryan117	MR: Well, I had been taking workshop at the University of Iowa for a year, but it's not my memory that we ever really spoke about that. And so it was really compelled from the inside-out. It was more that the piece just wouldn't yield, and yet it wasn't going to be thrown away, either-there was something in it. So I don't know-my relationship to the whole enterprise shifted. I just started working more slowly in the sense of not less-probably, in fact, more-it just got finished a lot more slowly. And there were a lot less poems. And now I write very few. I mean I write a lot of poems still, but it seems like 1 out of 100 starts comes to fruition, at most.
ryan118	DB: Okay. Your style of revision-are you adding, are you subtracting, or are you sort of substituting? Or is it a combination of those?	[00:28:39]
ryan119	MR: I'm pushing into it. I'm pushing as far down into it-and as far out-as I can, with attention to all the aspects of poetry as I understand it and hope that the poem embodies, you know? Rich Wilbur said, "My intention in writing a poem is to exhaust the subject." I don't ignore that. I don't ignore-in my own mind, at least-anything. I want everything to be working on eight cylinders, and of course I never achieve that. It's an impossible ideal. But I'm trying to grow into the language. I'm trying to grow deeper into the subject. I'm trying to make the story-if there is one, or one implicit-I'm working with every aspect of it. But it's essentially getting a line that might be a beginning, and that it contains everything else. That's the weird and sort of mystical aspect. It's all in that piece, and it's driving you to complete it.
ryan120	DB: Yeah, and how do those lines come to you?
ryan121	MR: Randomly. Sometimes when I'm reading. I was reading this morning and it sparked something and I wrote it down, but it probably will never see the light of day. Or in the middle of the night-I have to get up out of bed and turn on the light, write down the line. But it almost never sees the light of day. I have various repositories for these lines, but it's gotten pretty disorganized, too. I used to be a lot better at keeping them in one place, but I do try to dig it all out and look at it sometimes, especially when I'm dry, or, because of teaching, I haven't been able to work on my writing for a while. So to get started again, I'll just look at all this-what to me is-raw material. But raw material can come from anywhere. It can come from somebody else's writing, too. But it has mostly got to come from my own.
ryan122	DB: And so, for a line that you wake up in the middle of the night to write down, what do you write it down on?	[00:31:36]
ryan123	MR: Well, I can write it in my journal. I keep a journal now, a handwritten journal. Or I can just write it on a piece of folded paper.
ryan124	DB: How is the journal related to the writing at this point? Have you been doing that your whole career or is that a more recent development?
ryan125	MR: No, I've been doing that for about the last 15 years. The journal, for me, is a separate enterprise. It's just the kind of vomiting that I probably wouldn't want anybody else to ever read. But there is stuff in it sometimes, you know. I have gone through the exhausting, narcissistic process of rereading the journals sometimes, and right now what I have started doing is I write the journal in black ink and if there's something that I want to remember for writing-prose, poetry-I will underline it in blue, so that I can go back through it and see what those things are.	[00:32:02]
ryan126	DB: Okay. So you say that you're still writing a lot, but there are a lot fewer that are coming up to that level. I mean, how has that changed over the course of your career? Were they more kind of bubbling-up, or do you have higher standards at this point?
ryan127	MR: It's not really standards. I mean, I want it to be as good as it can be, always. So the standard is, you know-that's the standard. Whether or not I ever achieve it-or how often I do-is unfortunately not for me to say. Because I would say that it pretty much either achieves that standard and simultaneously doesn't. So again, it's just my audience for a poem is the poem. What anybody else thinks of it-or even what I think of it-doesn't matter at all. To me, what I want to do is get the poem to come off of the page and become a thing. So, you know, again, whether or not I'm doing that, that's sort of the illusion that I'm under.
ryan128	DB: How do you know when it's a "thing"?
ryan129	MR: I don't know. Except I do know. I'm talking like a Zen...
ryan130	DB: Yes, yes. I mean, it is almost certain.
ryan131	MR: I mean, I don't really know how to answer that because again, it depends upon the piece, so it's contingent. But I interrogate my work brutally. I would never want anyone to talk to anyone else the way that I talk to my poems. I ask them at every moment, "Are you interesting? Are you interesting? Are you interesting? Is this engaging?" Every nanosecond of the piece, I want it to be-Keats said, in his letters, he wanted "to load every rift with ore." And he was talking about sound, mostly, in that particular context. But that's what I want to do. Every moment provides an opportunity, and you just don't want to lose your attention to that.
ryan132	DB: Right. Has your definition of "interesting" become slimmer as your practices have been going forward?	[00:35:45]
ryan133	MR: I think it has actually become wider. I think I'm a little bit-not much-but a little less obsessive, and a little less tunnel-vision than I was when I was younger. But my taste has not really changed in music, in painting, in poetry. You know, I've discovered new things along the way, but I remember seemingly consistent, and hide-bound.
ryan134	DB: What role do other people play in your revision process?	[00:36:33]
ryan135	MR: Well, I have trusted readers, some of whom I've had for a very, very long time. I think what you want in a reader is somebody who loves your work-and maybe loves you-but will tell you the truth about a piece. Even to the point of saying, "This really doesn't work at all, and belongs in the bone pile," but who will tell you, at every place, what doesn't work for them. And you can get a group of these responses, and you can see which ones are useful. I've changed things because of those responses, but I also have not changed things.
ryan136	DB: How does that work in a logistical way? Has that changed pretty dramatically?	[00:37:28]
ryan137	MR: No it hasn't. It's just a question. I mean, it's like going to a shrink or something, or talking to a friend, or a spouse-it gives you new eyes. You need new eyes. Then you're able to process that response, because it's concrete. It's not abstract. You can only interrogate it so far by yourself, and then you need somebody to tell you, "This is working," or, "This isn't."
ryan138	DB: Are you now sending these over email?
ryan139	MR: Yeah.
ryan140	DB: And before there was email?
ryan141	MR: Through snail mail.
ryan142	DB: But it was a similar process?
ryan143	MR: Same thing.
ryan144	DB: Do you find the immediacy of email has changed it?
ryan145	MR: We've become terribly spoiled by the immediacy of email. I mean, you send something off and you expect something is going to come back in the next 3 minutes. If it's something you're particularly looking for, you check your email 712 times a day. It takes a real discipline for me not to do that, because I would spend all my time doing that, otherwise.
ryan146	DB: So this is the kind of organizational archival portion. How do kind of keep track of all the work that you have, coming from beginning to end? Like, say, just one poem for instance. Do you have many going at the same time, or are you always working on one, and then that comes and you move on to the next?	[00:39:14]
ryan147	MR: I never have been able to do more than one thing at a time, ever. And so if I'm working on an essay, that's all I'm working on. If I'm working on a poem, that's all I'm working on. If I'm working on a nonfiction piece, that's all I'm doing. I just don't have the capacity. I might, you know, still have lines of poems in the middle of the night or come to me, and I will write them down, but I don't work on those. I never bring anything to completion, stop this and do this, and go back to that. I just have to totally immerse myself in what I'm doing.
ryan148	DB: And so, once that becomes version 10, or whatever, on the computer, and then you've moved onto the next, how do those then coalescence into a collection?
ryan149	MR: Well, I have the final drafts of each of the poems, at a certain point. Most books of poems are about 40 poems, about 50, 60 pages-at least mine are. So, usually somewhere in the 30s, the book will start to take shape. There might be a great number of those that won't make it into the book. Some will seem too weak. I've published quite a few poems in magazines that didn't go into any collection ever. So there is a process of winnowing at that point, and even more revision of individual pieces. But I will take it out of the folder that it's in-you know, it will be X-10, Y-25 or whatever the piece is-and then I'll take the final version and just save it into the book folder. You know, I'm still working in the compositional folder, but it will then be, "These are finished, and these are going to go into a book."	[00:40:36]
ryan150	DB: And then when you are putting together the order, when you have maybe all of the poems ready, how do you go about doing that?	[00:42:08]
ryan151	MR: Well, they'll all be printed out in their final versions, and I'll mess with them. I'll mess with the paper. I couldn't do it any other way.
ryan152	DB: Yeah. And do you have any other rituals or things for doing that? Do you put them all out on the wall, or something like that?
ryan153	MR: I've heard of people who do that-they spread them out on the floor and stuff-but I've never done that. I do make, sometimes, arbitrary decisions. I don't like-though I used them earlier on-sections. I don't do that anymore. I don't think that's in my last work-I should probably check. I mean, my preference is for it to be one thing.
ryan154	DB: So, some of this collection work hasn't changed-I mean, small things, like not using sections anymore, and things like that. Do you notice any other changes from your earlier career to now?
ryan155	MR: In terms of?
ryan156	DB: Composing, say, the book as a whole once you're at that finished stage?
ryan157	MR: No. I can't really say so. It's, again, a process of trying to realize it as best you can and also to not publish it until it's ready to be published. And I certainly didn't choose to take-it's about 10 years between books of poems,, on the average but I also did write three other books. So, they took some time as well, but I've never been anxious to put something out before I was happy with it.
ryan158	DB: Okay. So, that's sort of the basic sort of process portion. Is there anything else you think you should mention or we should talk about? I mean this is going to be kind of another short answer portion, like a lot of the computer questions, basically.	[00:44:33]
ryan159	MR: Well, no.
ryan160	DB: That's fine.
ryan161	MR: I mean there's also infinite subjects to talk about but, you know, I think the most interesting part of this for thinking about making it into a magazine thing was the questions about composition.
ryan162	DB: Yeah. So, these are kind of the more, I guess, blunter questions about computer use, and I think we mentioned some of these. When did you start using computers on a regular basis? Late 80s?
ryan163	MR: Probably mid-80s.
ryan164	DB: Mid-80s?
ryan165	MR: It was pretty early.
ryan166	DB: Okay. And how did you have access to a computer? Was it a personal computer?
ryan167	MR: I bought it.
ryan168	DB: You bought it?
ryan169	MR: It cost a lot of money, too. At least I didn't have much at the time.
ryan170	DB: Yeah. What drove you to make that purchase if it was a larger one?
ryan171	MR: Friends had told me-who were writers-that, "You've got to do this. This is amazing and wonderful. Do it." The program assistant at Warren Wilson knew computers, and so I could take some tutorials with her, and she showed me how to do it. And a lot of the writers-it's a low-residency program; two weeks every six months-a lot of the writers were going to her at that time.
ryan172	DB: Did you agree with your friends that it was this great thing to have once you had it?
ryan173	MR: Again, it was great to be able to change things without typing them all out again-and that's pretty much all you could with it. There was no internet. There was no email. All it was was a word processor.
ryan174	DB: Did that have any effect on your style, or on your process?
ryan175	MR: Not that I could track. I wrote letters first on the computer. It was still snail mail and so, I was composing letters on the computer. But I would compose letters on the typewriter, too. I've always done that, and not written letters by hand-I'd always typed them. But I liked being able to-you see me doing this with my fingers. I liked being able to do that. And I think that's what led me to start composing prose on the computer, because it was easier for me write physically.
ryan176	DB: I know you've been working in rhymed verse, or in formal rhymed verse, since the beginning, but I feel like it's increased more as you've gotten into your later career. That was one of things I was wondering when I was reading your stuff again for this interview. It doesn't seem that the computer really has any play in that-like, I thought there might be an easier way to work with rhyme or something like that, but you're still mostly doing that all on paper?	[00:47:54]
ryan177	MR: Yes. But I have looked up-I confess-rhyming pairs. There are rhyming dictionaries online. So, sometimes I've used those just to see what the options are.
ryan178	DB: Right.
ryan179	MR: I want to write a rhymed poem as if you don't even know it's rhymed, unless it's purposeful that you do know it's rhymed. So, yes, in that aspect of it. But in terms of composition? No.
ryan180	DB: Okay. How was your relationship with the computer changed? I guess that's a very weird question, but I guess I'm wondering how you feel about the files themselves? Were you always kind of conscientious about trying to save them, or are they more of means to an end?	[00:49:11]
ryan181	MR: I don't really think about that much. I think I've had a few computers crash-I don't remember. Did I ever lose anything? I don't recall. I don't think so. Not poetry, anyway. But what did I do before computers? How did I save stuff? I think just in the folder. And I still do that. I still keep a physical folder of finished poems. I have the poems I finished since This Morning-
ryan182	DB: This Morning, the book, not-
ryan183	MR: This Morning, right. Yeah. That would be a lot for me. Since 2012, they are in just a file folder upstairs, the paper copies. The finished book, the final drafts.
ryan184	DB: Do you have any sort of "dear" feelings for like, say, maybe some of the paper, maybe the hand-written work, or anything like that? Do you try to protect it? Do you kind of give it extra attention in any way?
ryan185	MR: Well, I do invite it to dinner every once in a while. I take it to the movie when it feels neglected. And I pet it, sometimes. Speak very soft, kind words. Um-no.
ryan186	DB: The computer has more of a kind of ease of typographical flourishes. Have you ever used any of those options on the computer?	[00:51:15]
ryan187	MR: No.
ryan188	DB: Do you use spell check?
ryan189	MR: No. But I don't have spell check. I mean, the program will underline something in red if it's misspelled. If it's misspelled, I will correct the spelling, but I don't think I have an automatic-maybe I do? I don't know. I've never used it. I won spelling bees.
ryan190	DB: When you're writing are you connected? Well, when you write, you kind of compose mostly off the computer. I guess when you're typing it out, are you connected to the internet? Are you using the internet in any way with the poem?
ryan191	MR: Poem?
ryan192	DB: Or with prose? I mean, either way?
ryan193	MR: Well, in the act of writing, again, for the most part, when I'm on the computer for a poem, I'm not composing. I am just typing. And then I might use the internet to look up a word or-I've never really been conscious, particularly, of the process. When I've written prose that involves a reference to something, or I'm trying to think of what the thing is that I want it to refer to, I'll look up stuff. The process of composing? Well, I guess I'm inside of it in the same way. I'm trying to make it rich in all the same ways, except the relationships among the language and structure and what you can do in a poem that you can't in a piece of prose, and vice versa. But yeah, I will. I'll go to something if I need to.
ryan194	DB: Can you pinpoint a point a time when the internet became more of an important part of your working or writing life?
ryan195	MR: I don't even really remember very well. We went to France in 1997 and there was no internet. So, that's what-17 years ago? We had no email. I think internet was just kind of beginning, here. I remember a friend of mine, whose wife is a novelist, saying that his wife had sent her novel to her agent over "the wire." That was about that time, and I thought, "My God! That's amazing!" But, yeah-I don't really remember when it came into such a degree that it became something resembling what it is today. It seems like it was a very gradual process.
ryan196	DB: Do you note, like, in maybe different books, or in your relation with publishers, that there was a difference or a change? I'm guessing your book of essays came out 2000-did you interact with the publisher there online? Did you do that with the selected?	[00:55:00]
ryan197	MR: As I recall, there was email very shortly after we came back from France in 1997. So, those last three years of the century, email kind of just started to become the mode of communication. And yes-I was working with a copy editor who lived in San Diego, and we would send things back and forth and to the publisher, which was in Georgia. Yeah, it was all in place by then.
ryan198	DB: Do you ever worry about the security or, sort of, fixity of the files, the computer files that you have now? Is that a conscious concern, or-?
ryan199	MR: Like someone would get into it and-?
ryan200	DB: I guess more like the computer would crash, and you would lose them.
ryan201	MR: Well, you know, I have paper copies, and recovery methods are pretty sophisticated for hard disks. I have an old laptop in my closet that I thought to get the hard disk transcribed to a newer computer. I just have never done it. It's probably impossible, now-it's way out of date. But outside of that, one, I think, did crash. I've just taken whatever is on the hard disk of the old one and transferred it to the hard disk of the new one, and as I said, I believe this thing has automatic backup on it.
ryan202	I don't know how they do that but I'm pretty ignorant of all these stuff, and willfully so. It just would suck up too much of my time to learn about it. But I do know writers who are really pretty expert, and probably it ends up using less of your time once you learn it. But I have a physical aversion to reading manuals, so I can't do it. So, I have a computer guy-a very nice guy. If any of us-my wife, my daughter, or I-have any problems, I call him up. He's usually here within a couple of hours.
ryan203	DB: Okay. How often do you see this gentleman?
ryan204	MR: Well, only when we have a problem, but he also has that "log me in," I think it's called? So, he has all three of our computers accessed-everything on them-from his office. So, I hope he continues to like me. I overpay him and-
ryan205	DB: That's probably wise.
ryan206	MR: Yeah, I think so. He has access to everything on all the computers. So, I'm not sure if that's ridiculous or not, but-	[00:58:42]
ryan207	DB: How did you establish this relationship?
ryan208	MR: He works for the school, but he does this for us privately. So, I met him through his working for the School of Humanities. A very sweet guy.
ryan209	DB: You talked a little bit about the correspondence changing from snail mail to email. Do you feel like you do more correspondence now with email, or is it about the same throughout your career?
ryan210	MR: Well, as you know, it's a completely different animal. A lot of emails have no addressee, and no "complimentary close," as we called it in 4th grade-"Sincerely, Michael." People write two, three words, or one sentence for an answer to an immediate question. It's nothing like a letter. You wouldn't write a letter like that.
ryan211	DB: In terms of like the correspondence you have with writers and things like that, is there a marked change in that correspondence, as well?
ryan212	MR: When I'm responding to somebody's manuscript, I would say there is no change. So, I will write them a letter, essentially the exact same thing I would have been sent through the mail. But other things, like personal correspondence, tends to be a lot briefer. I mean, I'll still try to be funny in emails. I mean, that's actually the thing I do the most. And I can also send people hilarious stuff from YouTube, or whatever, and I get those back, and sometimes they'll send jokes, or whatever. So, there are changes. There are also similarities, but because it's so much faster and so much easier, you can make it shorter.
ryan213	DB: In terms of your own sort of reading and thinking, have you found the computer a boon to finding new work, or to finding new writers to read, or anything like that?	[01:01:05]
ryan214	MR: I don't like to read off the screen. If I really want to read something-if it's an article in a newspaper or something-I will usually print it out. Also, I'm having some physical problems using computers, and probably heading for a shoulder surgery this summer, so it's not physically comfortable to spend too much time on it. But mostly, even before that, I don't like to read off the screen. I like to read off a page.	[01:01:20]
ryan215	DB: What is the difference, do you feel, for yourself?
ryan216	MR: That's a very good question. I like having a physical thing in my hands to read from. That's native to me. I mean, screens didn't come in any significant way until about 15 years ago. So, I was reading for many years-probably 50 or so-before that happened. I would imagine that kids are perfectly happy reading off the screen. My daughter texts her friends all the time and gets texts and emails, and I don't text anybody. I don't do text, you know. I'm like my grandmother with the telephone.
ryan217	DB: And then, I guess, sort of a little bit of on teaching, and then just kind of ending. So, have you seen-with the computer rise and all that-has your teaching changed pretty fundamentally, or has it stayed the same?	[01:03:10]
ryan218	MR: Oh man. Well, it's a teacher's nightmare, in so far as, you know, you can be contacted any time in the night or day. And you can't live teaching without email. It's not possible anymore. It's just assumed that you're going to get notices from school, you're going to get communications. You just simply would not be able to function. Because when this technology-and this is commonplace-it just makes the other technology completely obsolete. So, the way people communicated with you before-when I was teaching before the advent of all of this stuff-none of those communications would come through those means. And now all of them do.
ryan219	So, it isn't that you can just stop and get them from other sources, because they don't come from other sources. So, all the emails I get from the chair of the English Department that go out to every member of the English department, they don't appear in my mailbox. Which, before, I would get them every four days that I went into school. The assumption of the timeframe has radically changed and compressed. So, just it's so much more of your attention that it's really necessary for me to limit that. I don't have an iPhone. I have a dumb phone, and I don't want emails following me around all day.
ryan220	DB: Yeah. I'd like to drop mine off too. Did this kind of, I guess, greater reach of email and the sort of technological stuff that we've been accustomed to, has that changed your writing in anyway? Has that impacted your time? Has that impacted your attention?	[01:05:22]
ryan221	MR: I would like to think not, but again, there is an addictive quality to sitting on the computer that I've noticed-that I check my email, and then I'll look at the weather, and then I want to see what the headlines in The New York Times are, and I'm sitting there. And why get up? So it has that quality of really drawing you into being in a relationship with it. There was a survey in The Guardian, which is the newspaper I read every once in a while-well, almost every day I'll look at it-and the question was, "Would you rather give up sex, or your computer for the rest of your life?" And guess what 70% of the people answered.
ryan222	DB: Sex.
ryan223	MR: So, if that isn't insane, I don't know what is. Or maybe the two are coterminous for people. But it has really become something radically different.
ryan224	DB: Do you feel that your students have changed in their kind of cultural, technological understanding or relationships with you, since the rise of the internet?	[01:06:59]
ryan225	MR: No, I wouldn't say that. Again, they can contact me at any time.
ryan226	DB: So, that's a change?
ryan227	MR: But that's fine with me. I mean, they respect me. I actually contact them more than they contact me, and they are very, very considerate of my time and my attention. So, it's not really a problem. It's just that I think their relationship to technology is very different from mine. They were talking the other day at a pause in the workshop about how many of them are still doing Facebook. I've never done Facebook. I never would do Facebook. Facebook is my worst nightmare. The idea that anybody-you know, I still get emails from strangers and people I used to know, and all this stuff. And I don't want any of that stuff. But they were saying they do Facebook, but for their undergraduates-their students, four years younger-than Facebook is passé. They don't do Facebook. They do whatever-
ryan228	DB: Some other thing.
ryan229	MR: So I am very much like my grandmother still screaming into the phone, because the way she had phones-which didn't come until she was pretty old to start with-you had to crank it, and you had to shout into the thing. And so she just kept doing that, even when she didn't have to.	[01:08:32]
ryan230	DB: Yeah. Then I think, finally, sort of my blunt ending question-do you have any kind of thoughts as to what really changed with the advent of computers in relationship to writing? I mean, has there been a change in your opinion, or do you see it as something that has simply transferred kind of analog practices into a virtual environment?	[01:09:03]
ryan231	MR: Well, I'm not sure that I'm educated enough to answer that question, and the area that it affects that is most important to me is poetry. And in fact, I think there is a great opportunity. Poems, you know-the convention is an artificial convention. But for the last how many hundred years, at least probably 200, maybe even a little more than that, have been published in the form of books. That's just the way poems have primarily appeared. Also, individual poems have, over the last X years, appeared in magazines. I've had a number of poems published only online. Some of those poems have been accompanied by audio versions to the poems. Some of the poems have video versions. It seems to me that, you know, where this all could go, and I have no better idea than anyone else, is-I hope books don't stop existing. It's one of those technologies, like a bicycle, that seems like it will never go out. It's a good technology. But clearly, there also have been published poems that are also being published in other forms.
ryan232	I have published five books, and yet, there's probably 75, 80, 90-most of the content of my books are on the web right now, without my permission. I mean, they are just there. So anybody who wants to read poems by me, or any other poet, could find them right there, and they won't be in book form. They will be individual poems. For me, poetry is very much an auditory experience. When I am composing, I say them out loud in a kind of quiet voice. I like to read poems out loud. I'd like to hear them read out loud. I think you get a different apprehension of them than just reading them silently. So all that to me is for the good. I like hearing poems online. And I like seeing poets read online, but that's less important to me than being able to hear them. So that could really serve to make poems perhaps less like prose.
ryan233	DB: Yeah.
ryan234	MR: Just the technology.
ryan235	DB: That access to the auditory experience immediately with the printed page.
ryan236	MR: Yeah. It's very cool, and you can read it and listen to it at the same time if you want.
ryan237	DB: Yeah, and so when you're composing, you're also reading it out loud, like line by line, as you're writing the words?
ryan238	MR: I do. I always do that.
ryan239	DB: You always do that.
ryan240	MR: It's like a little whisper.
ryan241	DB: Okay. That's interesting. Okay. I think that's it.
ryan242	MR: All done?
ryan243	DB: Yeah. Thank you very much.
ryan244	MR: Thank you, Devin. That was fun. Fun is important.
ryan245	DB: Yes, it is.
strickland1	Devin Becker: Well, let's put that right there. And that one, it has like an auto level, so that should work and I can see it. So that's nice. Usually I get really nervous about thirty minutes in. Is it going? One time, one wasn't going, which really made me anxious. That's why I have two.	0:00:00
strickland2	Stephanie Strickland: So these are the questions?
strickland3	DB: Yeah, these are the questions and it's pretty open-ended. There are sort of a couple of parts to it. The first part is the very sort of meant to be quickly going through your current practices for your digital files. It's a survey that I've done online with a bunch of emerging writers, and that I'm asking all the participants in this as well, and then we'll talk kind of specifically about your writing processes for probably the majority. There are questions about computing and computers. Usually we cover those, but sometimes, I go through those a little bit too if we have gone through those things and I want to ask a few more. Does that sound okay? Do you have to go somewhere or anything? Everyone has been an hour and fifteen to an hour and forty-five, right in there. So if you would please state for the recording devices your name and our location.
strickland4	SS: It's Stephanie Strickland, New York City.
strickland5	DB: Okay. In this section, I ask what you write and what you use to write it. This is about how you compose currently. What genres do you write in?
strickland6	SS: I do books of poetry and I write critical essays, and I write—I make—usually collaboratively born digital works.
strickland7	DB: Okay. Would you say you have a primary genre?
strickland8	SS: Poetry.
strickland9	DB: What kind of devices do you own or have access to for your writing?
strickland10	SS: Pens, pencils. There's four computing devices in this one room. I keep an old XP machine going—with difficulty, these days. I liked Word 2003. I managed to get that and Word 2007 on that machine, and then I have a little small Acer, which is underneath there, which is actually probably the most advanced, but again, it's Word 2007 is on there that I write with, and it's for travel. And then since the last thing I made was an app for iPad, I was forced to buy an iPad—I had to show the thing on it! So that's over there, a mini.
strickland11	DB: A mini? That's what I have.
strickland12	SS: But I do not write on it.
strickland13	DB: You don't write on it, right?
strickland14	SS: No.
strickland15	DB: Okay. So, the operating systems you're using are mostly Windows?
strickland16	SS: XP and Windows 7.
strickland17	DB: Do you work on the different devices? And how do you work between—I guess, if you have all these devices, what is your style for going between them?
strickland18	SS: Well, if I'm generating new material, I will certainly do a certain amount of writing by hand. I capture, at various points, the material in a word processing program. The one I work with most intuitively is Word 2003. I'm annoyed at all the extra ridiculous functionality.	[00:03:09]
strickland19	DB: At least there is no clippie, right?
strickland20	SS: Yeah, I mean there's too much—it's not directed for what I want to do, and it doesn't handle other things—like Photoshop would—that it says that it will do.
strickland21	DB: Yeah.
strickland22	SS: But nonetheless, it's not supported anymore as with so much of the software that I once used. So I capture it at different points, certainly capturing it online is much better for sharing it and editing it to a degree, but it's not particularly good for through-line.
strickland23	DB: What do you mean by that?
strickland24	SS: Well, if you're writing something long with a complex argument, I think it's much easier to have it in front of you on paper and read it out, because it's very easy to go into a "collage-y" kind of style with stuff that's going to be published online. It's harder to get a really consecutive—long, consecutive argument made, I think, or a thought, and it's not fluid enough to do poetry. I mean, it restricts you way too much in terms of formatting compared to what you can do on a page by hand in terms of how you want to scratch things out or put something right in—
strickland25	SS: there's no arrow, insert, none of that. So it's neither—so there's a loss from both perspectives, but obviously from the point of organizing it and sharing it and necessarily sending it on for publishing these days and everything, it has to be done in—yeah. Long, long ago, I got used to doing that. It took me a long time to get there, though, because I started on a manual typewriter and then getting an IBM typewriter was a big thing, you know.	[00:05:00]
strickland26	DB: Yeah.
strickland27	SS: Just like I've used many, many writing technologies.
strickland28	DB: I mean that's really the impetus for this. I was just thinking about the thing I did earlier, then I started thinking about writers like yourself who have been writing over this course—this is a very interesting time for writing poetry.
strickland29	SS: Well, I need those little balls on the IBM Selectric. That was like this huge thing that you could erase with an erase thing, that you don't have to pull the page out and start all over again. On the other hand, there was a discipline about that. So each technology actually gave rise to a certain kind of poetry and a certain kind of mistake. These characteristic mistakes people make in email or characteristic word substitutions that you do that you never did on the page—	[00:05:52]
strickland30	—anyway, so I don't think that story has really been told because it shifts so rapidly, because you went from email to texting, to this to that, you know, and each one of those things has a different—and then Facebook sits up there and shifts its interface like monthly or whatever it does, you know, and that gives rise to a whole new thing. In the meantime, whatever a person might have wanted to do is kind of knocked out of their head because they are left wrestling with the interface.
strickland31	DB: Yeah that's a good point. So in terms of going between your paperwork and going to the digital, what are those—what steps are—
strickland32	SS: It's different. Every single project is completely different because I do a lot of—like, if I'm doing a conference presentation (there were a couple of conferences that we're going to do something with) I would tend to generate something and send it to my partner, what do they want to say about it, you know, and then we get together face to face and deal with that or whatever.
strickland33	Like the last really big new book I did, Dragon Logic, the way I wrote that was, for probably six months, every morning, I had some paper notebooks and things. I was looking through old notes and things. And I would sit and I would write, every morning, for maybe three or four hours and at the end of the morning, I would go and type it up—I mean input it.
strickland34	I did not look at it again. The next day, I would start completely fresh and I did that to the point that I had no idea how it had begun actually. And some—maybe six months later—I sort of came to the end of that, and then it was a matter of looking back and like—"what is it?"—you know? So then there was a long period of making a unity of some kind out of it. That shifted, that had made maybe two or three major shifts in understanding as I go through it, but I really liked it because it was very new to me to go back and look at—I mean, I really had no idea what it was.	[00:07:56]
strickland35	DB: You don't know, yeah.
strickland36	SS: It was a long period of writing and sometimes I've gone to writing colonies and written straight through for a long, long, long time, and not input it until I came back from there. But then there was a time when you would—I still had a car at that time, and I wasn't living in the city—and I put my IBM Selectric or whatever in, and would carry it out, or I would rent a computer to have at that place because I wanted the print out, and I still want the print out. It still looks different to me on paper than it does on the screen and you want to know both those aspects.
strickland37	SS: And then there came the time when no one did that anymore. You couldn't really rent a computer or rent—it was the same time you would go to make presentations wherever you went. The university had a computer there in a room with a stage and you needed a technician to come and fix up all the, whatever—and then they didn't anymore because everyone was expected to bring their laptop and to have one and travel with it. I had a lot of problems with my hands from when I first started doing digital work and I travel really, really light so that made me really angry that I had to—	[00:09:24]
strickland38	DB: To carry—
strickland39	SS: And I wouldn't. I would borrow somebody's or something like that. So there was like all these phases of what you had to do, the way to do it, and so it was different for every book.
strickland40	DB: When you're working—like, for Dragon Logic, when you were working on paper in the mornings, what were you working on? What were your materials? Was it just that notebook?
strickland41	SS: It was a bigger notebook than that, probably, a pen with wet ink—wettish ink, not like ballpoint—that has a flow to it, but again because of my hands, to have the least effort of writing. I like a big, like, engineering notebook with graph paper. Often, I had bigger ones like this. It was like a green graph on it. Yeah, I don't like just lined pages. This makes an overall page better, but still—
strickland42	DB: It has some sort of volume to it. That book has such interesting volume. So then how do you save that stuff? Do you just keep it and once you're finished with the notebook, do you store it somewhere or do you send it?
strickland43	SS: Put it in a box.
strickland44	DB: Put in a box over there? Most of your prewriting and your notes are all in notebooks like that?
strickland45	SS: You would hope! But no, they are not. There's a lot of loose paper, there's a lot of, well, it can be anything because it's whatever I happen to pull up at that exact moment. It can be stuff I wrote down at different times and happened to bring it together. And there were so many versions for a while, and then you sort of drown in versions and then you get tired of that. And then came the time when I decided I needed to use the back of everything, for ecological reasons. I really feel sorry for the people that do [study this later], because now there's a version of a thing and you look on the back and you have no idea when that thing on the back—I mean, if you think the front and the back were done at the same time, they never were.
strickland46	DB: No? Good, now we have that on record.
strickland47	SS: But you know, and they have no relation to each other, but I can just see somebody—because they're on the same paper, and they are saying that it will, and I'm like... And the other thing I do that's crazy is that I have some notebooks and then sometimes I go through the exact same notebook again and write into it so that it's actually a palimpsest of two different things that happen and there's no way that you would know—from the outside.
strickland48	DB: Why do you do that?	[00:13:07]
strickland49	SS: Because I want to—I go back and see, is there, does it still have the pull for me that it did, the things that I wrote down at that time, because there are things that tend to be continually magnetizing for me. I like to see—like I've never kept a diary in the sense of a personal diary or like a diary of what happened with my kids' behavior or whatever. I've never done that kind of a thing. I have like a horror of that like I have a horror of lined pages—but I have, there's just—sometimes, something just gets to me and I just need to write it down, so it's just these magnetizing things sort of, right? Maybe some image or something that had a—
strickland50	DB: That came back?
strickland51	SS: Yeah, there's like a—I remember seeing once an image of a Viking boat that I actually did go get to see in Norway, but this was just on the cover of a thing and it was the keel and the shape of the thing, and it was just in a kind of turquoise blue kind of thing and it was like, you know, it could have been a company's annual report or something—the cover—it had nothing to do with what was in there but there's this image. It's just like, "Ah" you know.
strickland52	DB: Striking.
strickland53	SS: In a zillion ways, that was important to me, which I don't necessarily know how, you know? So I have pictures pulled off like that. No, it's not organized.
strickland54	DB: Okay, good luck future researcher.
strickland55	SS: Yeah, good luck.
strickland56	DB: It sounds like you kind of write—in Dragon Logic, it isn't really individual works, it is a collection but it's also kind of, you know—and some of your other books as well—are not quite made of individual works, but then when you're working, when you move stuff over to the computer, do you—
strickland57	SS: Well, what do you mean not made individual? I mean, there are individual poems, but they are related. There's a whole meaning to the book.
strickland58	DB: Right, yeah and it just sounds like with your notebooks—I'm just interested in how you organize that once it moves on to a digital space?
strickland59	SS: I'm really good at that. I do that for lots of other people's books, too. I see unities, I see structures. I think I think in structures. I wanted to be an architect at one time.
strickland60	DB: That makes sense.
strickland61	SS: So, do you know the sort of math side of things and beautiful side of things of whatever you work on are not different for me exactly—
strickland62	DB: Right.
strickland63	SS: — so that the structure is often what I see. Do you know? It resonates, there's some kind of resonance here. So I see that and then it becomes what's the best way in, but that's for print because then in a digital work, there's not an "in" in the same way, right? In other words, there's an access often to all parts of it at once, you know in some kinds though I generally provide a default path through as well as a more open thing. So I think that's probably why that kind of work was so interesting to me, starting with True North, which has those five integrally [related] poems—the True North poems are sort of used to divide up the book—but really, they are supposed to be at the center of a moving pole, like the sun going around, so...how do you tell where True North is? You're answering that one question and then the rest of the things would be around in a sort of spherical space, which really should be an installation.
strickland64	DB: Yeah.	[00:17:02]
strickland65	SS: Or true three-dimensions, which of course you're not going to get, but anyway.
strickland66	DB: Someday there will be holographs.
strickland67	SS: Yeah, yeah, right.
strickland68	DB: Just in terms of the nitty gritty though, I mean like, when you have a file on the computer, what is it called? Is it called the title of the poem or do you have large files full of many things?
strickland69	SS: Well, at some point it's the name of the poem, or it's a name that references the name of the poem. For a long time, I will do revisions within that file with the date at the top of what—of which revision that is. Though, sometimes when I'm doing many, many revisions in one day, that gets a little lost. Then, at the point of a manuscript, there's a whole file that's an entire manuscript and those will have dates or something, you know, called "1, 2, 3," or something. They will be distinguished in some ways to which version they are of the whole manuscript.
strickland70	SS: I don't just put a whole lot of stuff together—I mean, that doesn't belong together—like in one file. I have kind of an elaborate folder system which, having worked in libraries, I'm pretty comfortable dealing with elaborate folders and so I know where I think—but increasingly, it's like, "Where did I put that?" because there are too many places to put certain things. Is it under the conference that I'm going to give? Is it under essays and talks? Is it under whatever—and the search capability within Windows is pathetic, so not better on Macs to my—though I'm not as well acquainted with them. That's a little annoying that I can't—and I mean, Google, I try to find—you know the book called The Burnt Book by Marc "hyphen" something [Marc-Alain Ouaknin]... . Anyway, I thought it was Kinin, I had O-U-A-K right. I had "Marc" right, I had "Burn" right, and I go on Amazon, go in "Books", say French, or Jewish, whatever—could not find it. Right? I mean, seriously! And then it didn't make what I thought was the obvious—do you know how it usually—"Did you mean?" It was terrible. Anyway, I finally got it in Bing after trying a zillion different things, but I mean like—
strickland71	SS: it should be better by now, that kind of thing should be way better by now. Any published book should be in Google books. Give me a break! Anyway, I'm not happy with "Search."	[00:20:00]
strickland72	DB: Okay. In general. And as a librarian, I think I can understand your problems with that. Just to be clear, when you are doing an individual poem and you put the date at the top, do you have like a version and then another version at another page with a new date, or something like that?
strickland73	SS: Yes, so that could be fifty pages long.
strickland74	DB: But it's one poem?
strickland75	SS: But it's one poem, or whatever. Increasingly you're farther away from the one, and then you could just—"I can't deal with this poem anymore." What's useful is often a version really near the beginning, and then you pick something from the middle, it's under the end of the file, and then you can find your way, kind of, because you forget what you, you know, whatever. Yeah. I do it like that, and then eventually it's what you either call "Final Version" or "the version sent to so and so" or, you know, like that, to try and have a clean copy folder as well as the working folder.
strickland76	DB: Okay, so you have the working draft and then you can push it into a different folder that's more finalized.
strickland77	SS: More like "to send out," or something like that.
strickland78	DB: Okay. During this time, are you printing out those to revise them as well?
strickland79	SS: Well, you print them out. You don't print out everything. At a certain point, you'll print it out.
strickland80	DB: Do you save any of the paper copies of those printouts?
strickland81	SS: Yeah, but it's not big—right? I was very happy when Duke was willing to take [inaudible 00:21:53] but that's not easy either because of this thing of going back to the notebooks and things and what you do and you don't want to send out. I did send off things like the galleys and things, the manuscripts and stuff like that. Some of the time, it just seems crazy if there's just too many versions, and those all from before were all printed on very fine paper for the back. So I just turn them over and use them for—
strickland82	DB : There you go. Oh man, that's going to be fun. How did you develop your sort of writing style, or that revision style, on the computer? Did you start out on the computer doing it like that? How has it grown into doing that?
strickland83	SS: I don't know. It was always like that. I mean, I was extremely aware with every shift in software, every shift in functionality. It just kind of hits me, what I've lost and what I've gained, if anything. So, I always needed to see it both ways. So, I think from the beginning I printed it out and then from the time I had trouble with my hands—which was in 1995, when I first started using Storyspace in a beta version that erased all your links every eleventh save...that was the flaw. I didn't know! It was the first time I used software. I thought I must be doing something wrong. So, it was just terrible. Anyway, I couldn't keep doing it. I couldn't keep working—so there was a whole period of becoming sort of a little more ergonomically aware of working with computers and they've changed so much, you know, as many different ways as possible, you shift off to use different—you know, your eyes get really tired of being on a computer or your hand or whatever.	[00:22:44]
strickland84	DB: Right. Currently how are you backing up your work?
strickland85	SS: Well, I try to make that the main thing. I back that up onto a flash drive and then I have this sync toy stuff that Microsoft makes for its computers. So I have that on there, and so I sync that onto there. That works okay.
strickland86	SS: Then I have a little wallet backup drive that I try to put from there onto that, but it doesn't work as well. It was working fine and now they just updated so I'm having trouble with that at the moment, but eventually that sort of works. So it's on there, and there, and there, and then the Acer	[00:24:35]
strickland87	SS: I just kind of put the files on that I—I made one big copy from there, but I don't really keep it updated and everything because it's just the files I really need to work with when I'm travelling.	[00:25:00]
strickland88	DB: Are there any sort of standard, I mean, are you like backing up like every five months or something? Is there sort of regularity to it or it's just sort of this—?
strickland89	SS: I note on my overall "To Do" document when I last did it. I do it at least every two weeks, but if I did a lot of work I would do it. I mean, you know, if there was a whole lot of stuff that I wrote or something, and if I'm doing that, it will kind of be on little flash drives between the computers as I move, I like to work on it here or whatever.
strickland90	DB: Do you ever email it to yourself, or anything like that? Maybe like a copy of the recent manuscript or anything?
strickland91	SS: No.
strickland92	DB: Okay.
strickland93	SS: It used to be a lot of other ways. Do you remember those Iomega things, those drives? Do you remember those things?
strickland94	DB: Like the zip drives?
strickland95	SS: Yeah. It used to be zip drive—there used to be a thousand ways.
strickland96	DB: On this trip, I went and visited the Beineke and met with their born-digital archivist. They have like a computer stack with all the different old things that slide in, they built it themselves. It was really kind of cool to see all that forensic material, to look at those things. What about your older media?	[00:26:16]
strickland97	SS: I mostly just got rid of it. It just annoyed me! It was just so much to come between you and your work. And then, when I first started working and collaborating with Marjorie Luesebrink, she was using ToolBook. I mean, people don't even know about ToolBook. Inevitably, each new version of the software would be worse. I mean, there was more functionality in the beginning, right? And then they would just knock it down. Those of us who used Director and Flash, we've been hit hard.
strickland98	DB: Yeah, Flash especially. But what's Director?
strickland99	SS: Director is shockwave files. Do you know shockwave files?
strickland100	DB: Oh, okay.
strickland101	SS: Director was beautiful, most of the e-literature pieces that I liked the best were made in Director.
strickland102	DB: So, is that sort of your ideal software environment for—?
strickland103	SS: Well, it was, I mean, it doesn't produce stuff for miniature mobile devices, right? But yes, the work that I thought was really beautiful was done in that. And then, Macromedia was fine. Adobe—when Adobe bought Macromedia, it didn't—between Adobe buying Macromedia and Steve Jobs not—I understand flash is, and memory hog and all that when we moved to— but between those two things, those were very creative things, you know, and they haven't been really replaced. The HTML 5 and JavaScript doesn't do it the same way. I mean, people are trying to do it, so the thing is, they'll make an app. So, yeah—that whole thing just annoys me, that it's under the control of so few software, I mean, so few computer or software companies, you know, what you can do or what's supposed to be done and the way things are supposed to look. It was such an open—so much to explore and so much did get explored and has disappeared because of the inability to access it.
strickland104	SS: We've lost like a generation of design intelligence is what you might even say. Because people were exploring that and there wasn't enough time for other people to see it or think about it or whatever before the thing had shifted and moved on. So that all made me very annoyed and it seemed to me that nobody cared about the exploratory side of it—which they should have! Google and Apple, they have enough money to care about the exploratory side of it, Microsoft too.
strickland105	DB: I think so.
strickland106	SS: Do you know what I mean? They should be running huge, like IBM did or like Bell Labs did, huge exploratory—right?
strickland107	DB: Yeah. I guess a question from that—what made you stick with it?
strickland108	SS: Well, it's just the architectural part—I mean, the possibilities are just so great with respect to time and performativity and— —reach, and it's an international art form, the last of which was maybe concrete poetry. You know? We need to communicate. The world's problems are global, whether climatologic or poverty or what have you, right? Water, whatever; resources, survival. So, you need to speak—you know, I can't speak to 500 people, you know what I mean?
strickland109	SS: I just think you should explore what you care about in a medium that does have a reach, and there are difficulties with that. This generator that Nick [Montfort] and I made, which was translated into Polish—I never learned more about English, or Polish, or computation than trying to translate it. You know?	[00:30:44]
strickland110	SS: It brings up aspects of your language you never think about, because you never think about how it's different than Polish, for instance. And then they're trying to read your thing, and they're trying to read, in this case, too, Melville and Dickinson, because the work Sea and Spar Between was based on that. They are trying to deal with that and if it's not a good translation of Dickinson in Polish and then what—how do you—you know? It's really intense. Not only is it international, but it's a very intense investigation and evaluation of your basic materials. What you are working with, too—so you get to know your own stuff better, and you get to know somebody else better. I think that's a minimum of what we are going to need?
strickland111	DB: Yeah. That's a really good point. So when did you do the translation into Polish?
strickland112	SS: Oh, we didn't do it—these two Polish people did it. It was done by last—last year, Paris in October, I guess? Early October, whatever; September, October. The ELO [Electronic Literature Organization] meeting was in Paris and it was presented there. They gave a paper on it and we gave a paper on it, which will come out in this French journal Formaroute in June, or whatever. And it had been—they started doing it pretty soon after it was published—I think they started working at it—[32:52]—and Nick had run into one of these guys, I think at a translation conference in Paris that [Inaudible 32:51] had run or whatever and so it would have been in the works, but it just was a long—that was a long email exchange. This is the question, and how would you answer it, and how would they answer it, and all that.
strickland113	DB: Did they keep the JavaScript specifically and then sort of substitute words within the eraser?
strickland114	SS: No. You have to modify the code as well as the—
strickland115	DB: The whole thing because of the syntax—
strickland116	SS: Yes, you have to modify the code as well as the—that was always so interesting, you know, because you think the code is international or something but it's not. It's very language specific, what you normally can do, and so it's interesting.
strickland117	DB: Yeah, that's fascinating. I'd like to talk kind of more on a grander—or, not grander, but a longer scale about your sort of career as a writer and if you could kind of describe that arc. Like when did you start kind of writing really seriously—poetry—and then what was the move like from your first books into writing into born-digital pieces and stuff like that? If you could just give a kind of broad outline of that?
strickland118	SS: My father was an engineer. He had absolutely no use for words. Words were used by con-men, lawyers and advertising men. That's it. Whereas the real world, right, was reliable and whatever, he could build anything or sail anything or fix anything or whatever. So, it was like that. Though, my grandmother was a great reader and so forth, so there was that kind of thing but in my education, I didn't have any. I mean, I read a lot of literature but there was no point in it that I had any creative writing, anything like that.	[00:33:55]
strickland119	SS: So, I got married when I was still in college and I had three kids in five years, and putting my husband through graduate school, all that kind of stuff—or helping to put him through graduate school.
strickland120	SS: So, I didn't really start to write until I was home with no money, taking care of three children, you know, kind of "I can't move." [My] resource is only the radio really, kind of. I started to write then, but I did not value it, really. Then, at one point I went home for Christmas and my brother had brought a friend—I remember I was sitting with this youngest child in my arms and this and that, talking late at night, only lights of the Christmas tree around—and it just all of a sudden became clear to me that this friend of his wrote poems and was not tearing them up. It was like, "Oh!"
strickland121	SS: By that time, my older children were in school in Yonkers, and Sarah Lawrence had these writing programs. So I started to take programs there and in exchange, to pay for them, I worked in the library there—which I didn't have any library training, either, but that's all right. And eventually they wanted me to get the library training, and I got the library training by offering Pratt students—Pratt had courses in Westchester and all around, right and Sarah Lawrence had this computer, and this was really early computer lab stuff—I would teach the computer classes to the Pratt people up there to pay for the Pratt classes. And I was asked to—well, they wanted to automate—the librarian wanted to automate the library. This was a tiny little library, but a beautiful one. So, no one knew what that was—I mean, they had OC-LC, right? They had that, right? But it was like: get a catalog, get a circulation system showing that sort of list they may have here—so I said, "Sure." Why not?
strickland122	DB: Yeah. That sounds fun.	[00:37:22]
strickland123	SS: Seriously! And it was like, you're reading this stuff like—
strickland124	DB: And this was like early ‘80s?
strickland125	SS: Yeah, really early ‘80s. It was like—this is like "The Washington Library Authority System," or "Hennepin Headings" or—you know? It was like, "What's the right way to go?" You would do FTP downloads of ERIC databases and stuff like that. There were some digitized stuff to know, but it was really not—you know—
strickland126	DB: Yeah, that was really early.
strickland127	SS: So anyway, that's how I sort of became aware of those kinds of issues. Oh, and in the meantime, I had gotten my MFA and all that at Sarah Lawrence—but I really didn't send out sub—I mean, I had the children I was raising and a full time job and stuff like that. So, I was writing and then I somehow became aware—probably through Poets & Writers, you know—of McDowell, and Yaddo and stuff like that, and so I sent stuff off to there, and that was like the first time that I really had time to write at length, to do that. That was like amazing for me. That was very valuable for me.
strickland128	SS: I think it must have been early '90s that the first book was published, I think? It might have been. And then, some of the next few won some prizes and things like that. I won a CAP—CAPS was like a New York State grant, the old name for New York State, I think—and I got this newsletter from them, and that's where I first found out about Society for Literature and Science, which is now Society for Literature, Science and the Arts. I thought, you know, that sounds like something I'd be interested in, that was Kate Hayles who had sort of founded that.	[00:38:55]
strickland129	SS: So, I went—I started to go to those conferences, those meetings. And it was there that there was this notice about the NEH seminars—which, if you are not an academic, you don't hear about these things. But I looked, and it turned out—so Kate offered her first one of these in 1995. And it was about electronic literature but it was like	[00:39:32]
strickland130	SS: Hypertext Fiction, or whatever, and I'm like, "What? Why?" Because that's all there was kind of, at the time, you know? I had gotten involved with founding the Hudson Valley Writers' Center—some friends, people that I knew up at [upstate]—which was a poetry thing. So anyway, I went and looked at the guidelines for this thing. It turns out that you could apply as an independent scholar for any one of these things—and I'm an employed person, right? My whole application was, "You can't seriously only be offering this to academics and fiction people. You really need someone from poetry and someone from the public arts side of things." So, that's how I got into that thing. That was international. We had two computers for—it was maybe 15 of us? We had one Mac and one Windows computer for everybody to do all their work on, so we were working around the clock. It was a wonderful course. We did MOOS. We did all kinds of stuff. No one really knows what those are anymore, but—	[00:40:00]
strickland131	DB: Wait, what? MOOS?
strickland132	SS: MOOS. Online—like, you build rooms and you enter it textually, it's all textual and that kind of thing and those kind of games. Everything was of course new. We went and saw wonderful digital art builders, a lot of wonderful art being made in Pasadena—the Art Center [College] of Design, that place? And we went to SIGGRAPH—SIGGRAPH was just mind blowing and all that stuff. There were a few things on CDs—Uncle Buddy's Funhouse and Judy Malloy, there was a few, and the Eastgate hyperfiction things. And he'd just done this beta StorySpace for Windows, which was made available to Kate.
strickland133	SS: And I'd done—my first thing, my project, was supposed to be some bibliography or something. I got that done in one second; then she said, "Why don't you—?" Oh, and I had just written True North as a print thing, as a paper thing, and I'd sent it—I don't know who sent it—somebody sent it to Mark Bernstein, who liked it. He himself likes science and everything, and so he was really into like, "Let's make a hypertext file out of it." So that's when I started working with the [Storyspace software]—which was just—because it had this error, and I kept reporting errors. I didn't know if there were errors or I didn't know how to use it, or what. Then it turned out to be this really terrible thing, which—you know—you get nervous and you save more often and it's an awful feeling—	[00:42:14]
strickland134	DB: Every 11th time, it just deleted the links?
strickland135	SS: Yeah, it just destroyed your links. Anyway, we finally got it done and I sent it in, and that was great. He is going to publish it. Then he told me he had to make a version for Mac, which would—and the affordances of the Mac were completely different, I mean completely different. There were like two completely different things. Fortunately, Deena Larsen—who had been working with him in Mac forever—she and I got together at Marjorie's house in California. She showed me some of the stuff that you needed to do with that...but that was just traumatic, really. It was a traumatic way to go.	[00:43:15]
strickland136	SS: But maybe Marjorie [Luesebrink] was not—Marjorie and I then did stuff together. One of the things—which doesn't work anymore, the only one of my things that really doesn't work anymore (unless you have Netscape or whatever, or something)—we made a version of a poem that was in True North, the last poem in True North. But from then on, I was just—that was it, and I wanted to do digital work, and so from the time I did V: Wave Son.nets/ Losing L'una on, a digital component was part of the vision of the whole thing. And slippingglimpse was just purely a digital thing, though it got included along with the—well, no, no, the very, very first piece I did was The Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot.
strickland137	SS: That was right after True North, because we had the Cyber Mountain conference that Deena [Larsen] organized the next year, and I had that ready for that. I remembered bringing it to that.	[00:45:00]
strickland138	DB: In what form did you bring it?
strickland139	SS: It's in HTML, a web thing. So, everything else except for the app—the most recent app, which I don't know if you have, but there is—
strickland140	DB: I do.
strickland141	SS: —Vniverse.
strickland142	DB: Yeah. I have been looking at it this week, it's great.
strickland143	SS: —it's for the browser. Not the same on all browsers, but pretty playable.
strickland144	DB: The Ballad—didn't you win a contest with that one in print first?
strickland145	SS: No—oh, yes, I did! That was The Boston Review's—yes, I had written that.
strickland146	DB: Because I read they had that Heather McHugh thing—
strickland147	SS: Yeah, that's the thing. But when I wrote it, though I wrote it in print, it was written almost as a response to the whole experience of the NEH session, because it was like—it was just a whole response to this silicon world, carbon based world. Like how they were clashing with each other or how not, or their attraction to each other, or whatever. It was prompted by my reaction to what had happened at a computer. I wrote it in print. It's the length it is because whatever font size or whatever I had, it had to be ten pages for The Boston Review, so ten pages in some format. So, it was sent off for that. But then it was a natural thing to do it, because I wanted to have the images—because there were so many things—
strickland148	DB: What programming languages do you feel comfortable in?
strickland149	SS: I don't feel comfortable in any. I mean, I work with—I collaborate with other people and in a lot of different ways and I've been through a lot of different things with them. My role is always to want something that supposedly can't be done, and then—that's why I like to work face-to-face, and almost always have, with the person. Because you need to just fool around with it and these glitchy funny things happen, and it's great. If you have a good collaborator or a very simpatico collaborator, you are both sitting there agreeing that it's great, or whatever. And I actually love that process. I'm trying to think, in the cases of working with Marjorie and Cynthia, I was doing all of the linguistic stuff. We were doing interface design together—I mean, basically that was it: "how can we make this happen? This is the effect we want to have happen." Marjorie had—before Photoshop—and again, it was so easy. We used to have these applets from Italy, this designer in Italy. It was so easy to look at things and put things together. We had just a wonderful time. She had been in this NEH seminar as well.
strickland150	DB: With you as well?
strickland151	SS: Yeah.
strickland152	DB: Who are you speaking about?
strickland153	SS: M.D. Coverley is what she writes under. Her name is Marjorie Luesebrink. She was president of the ELO for a while until she gave that up—Community College in Irvine, and lives in Newport Beach. So, we used to go to SIGGRAPH together. We still go to all these conferences together. We're still very close friends. But we were discovering—anyway, her ToolBook thing was so great and she was so great visually. We just had different things to contribute to it, and different designs, and if you look at stuff she wrote, her own stuff, it is a much different—you would never confuse it—but it's like, we each had an influence, you know?
strickland154	SS: So, those were those things and then with Cynthia—with Cynthia it was great, because I went to IDP and Noah Wardrip-Fruin took me there, and I just said, "Were any of the students there interested in poetry, doing poetry?" and Cynthia was. She was very literate.
strickland155	SS: She had an engineering degree from Colombia—in the country Colombia—and she's moved on to completely other things, too, but we did these two, we did the Vniverse and the slippingglimpse. So there were two people that wanted to, and it was really clear, Cynthia was the person, we were going to do this. And we had a lot of fun with Vniverse, and slippingglimpse came because I went to a talk on—Catherine Bateson, and Paul Ryan was there showing some of those videos, not the ones we actually ended up using but some that are sort of similar, water videos—and he used the word "chreod," which I had never heard, and went up to ask him about it, and I bought his Video Mind, Earth Mind thing, and I read through the book and there was a diagram in it that's wrong—and it turns out that he and Cynthia were both teaching at The New School—and so I approached him, and I said, "We can fix this up for you. We can make a little program that that will make this right and we'd love to use some of your—" So, it was great. I came to his house and we looked at the all the colored ones, the ones that I've used (though, those are ten of about fifty or so). But a lot of things—like, I had to become a lawyer and draw up a kind of contract for us to use it and stuff like that? And at one point he said, "Yes, you could use them"—Cynthia needed them in a certain form and he wasn't really processing in this digital form, there was this one guy working for him who was, and all that—and this guy calls me up one night about 6 o'clock and says, "Which ones do you want?" On the phone, right? So, you know, you look at those water things—it's not "the one with the water," you can't say "the one that's green," you know—so, I've often said that was the most difficult linguistic job I ever had to do was to describe—without any notes, without any—just a visual memory, ten of these things from fifty that look really similar.	[00:50:00]
strickland156	DB: Yeah, that's funny.	[00:52:21]
strickland157	SS: But then he loved it, he really loved that work and they showed—he died just recently, and in his memorial things they showed those things. He was a great guy. We both had that ecological—and Cynthia has gone on to do a lot of work educating people around the—she's part of Occupy, and this education for the 99% kind of thing, including she takes groups of students to South America and so on. So she does intend to make—and she also has a career as a photographer—so, I mean, people go off in these different directions from these things. Then the thing with Nick is that he had a sabbatical, and he wanted to do a lot of collaborations and he came to me, and I had never done a generator—generator was so different from anything I had ever done and I wasn't really sure that was such a good idea. But he persuaded me, and so there was a lot of—he would travel here, I would travel there. That was the hardest.
strickland158	SS: Like with Cynthia, she's in New York, we could just sit down. Marjorie, I would go visit her and would just sit down and do it. Nick was a little harder to get together and do it, but we did it and then it was super—there's been a lot of interest in that, a lot of critical work about it, and people that wanted to translate it, and then we presented it—the Emily Dickinson Society wanted to do it, you know, we did it there—and we did this subsequent little generator called Duels-Duets, a collaboration. After that I worked with Ian, and then Ian is in New York too, so we've done a couple. We've done one about libraries, called House of Trust, which is going to be published in Volta in August.
strickland159	DB: That's up though, right?
strickland160	SS: You can go to House of Trust and see it, yeah. Have you seen it?
strickland161	DB: Yeah. I was looking at it this morning. It's got the library.
strickland162	SS: It's all about libraries!
strickland163	DB: So, in these processes—when you are collaborating—do you have the kind of traditional divisions between your labor? Are you, like, pre-writing, generating like you do in a notebook, and then you move to like a place where you're kind of composing and then revising and then finishing? Are there those stages or is it different?	[00:54:28]
strickland164	SS: Well, in some cases the poem pre-existed. So, we knew what we were working with.
strickland165	DB: So, you had the content.
strickland166	SS: We have that content, but that content is very small compared to how to design the interface.
strickland167	SS: So, I usually have a vision, just like with True North. It's a vision that's impossible, short of an installation—though, at one point when I was at Georgia Tech, the graduate student who was doing the Techno Poetry Festival with me—we really were going to do it. We looked into—you know, we wanted to have the stars like sensors that came down, and you would move among them and it releases the text, and it would be mirrored—and there would be water on the floor, or Mylar on the floor...I mean, we thought about it, right? So I would have a vision about it, but there would be—it's a learning process. Like with Nick. It's like, "I want this ocean. I want you to fall off the ocean." So, okay, we can make a torus out of it, or whatever. In other words, it's a negotiation to find out what you would do in the programming to have the effect of what you need to have.	[00:55:00]
strickland168	DB: Of what you are envisioning?
strickland169	SS: Yes, of what you are envisioning. And then, he's a poet himself, and we both liked and, by chance, had access to the Lexicon databases for both of those poets—this is a post-digital humanities project. We were looking through what words are interesting, what are not, and then just generating the template phrases, do you know? We would talk about this and what do we want to put back and what order do we want the words to be arranged—so alphabetic mostly, but fast fish loose fish, because we wanted them close together, or at the end, you know—? So it's this whole understanding of the way you are doing this, and then of course going on from that: the cut to fit the tool-spun course, which was like a meta piece. So, getting into all those questions was like a sort of a different thing. And then, I wanted—well, he did it on Python, Nick works in Python first to kind of sketch it, and then it was put into the—Nick is, you know, if you see his other generators, he's not into color, he's not into—right? I had to fight to get the blue.
strickland170	DB: That's a good win.
strickland171	SS: I kept throwing all these metaphor things on it. So, I did all that stuff about the number of fish in the sea, and all that. You kind of get the blue thing, but you learn so much from—you learn about each program, but as well—it's different sensibilities that you bring, you know? So, Nick and I couldn't have been more different, and at the same time we will always love exactly the same things. They are mathematical, they are poetic, they are structural. The same things will just—and we both agree that it is not trivial whether or not there is a hyphen between Moby and Dick.	[00:57:22]
strickland172	SS: You get far enough away, you say, "Oh my God! They're like identical, they're twins." But when you are right there it's very different. It's much more opportunistic than what you are suggesting. It's like, "What do we have access to? What can we do in the time we have? With the time that we have to get together, how would this work?" Like we both love Dickinson and Melville, so we just start out a generator—"What"—and then, like, with the Duels-Duets, there was a conference, an ELO conference, and the name of the panel was Duels-Duets, or something. It was people that work collaboratively, right? And so we had worked with—
strickland173	SS: —it was like I was just aware of all the things that were different, because with Cynthia and Marjorie it was much more we were all doing the same thing as we went along, much more negotiation. Because generators—I don't think that way, you know? So, it was about the negotiations and stuff like that. But then we had that thing, and so—I mean—we did that on the train and over lunch, just throwing in those things and I wanted it really realistic. I wanted some of the things that actually do happen—you know? You run out of time, and that's the reality of these collaborations. It's not like some ten-year project where every detail—I might love that, but it's not a medium that—
strickland174	DB: That rewards you.	[00:59:38]
strickland175	SS: No, not at all. And so, it's how much can you get done in the time, and you hope to God that you think of the right thing at the moment that the person is able to implement it, and that you have this whole other thing that's really important to do, skip your mind or whatever and—
strickland176	SS: People were brought into those discussions too, like the young man who designed the cover for the Spring Gun edition and so on. So it's different aspects of—do you know?	01:00:00]
strickland177	DB: Yeah.
strickland178	SS: And since I don't love social media or mobile whatever, I definitely need to hear from people who are using it about the way it needs to be used. You don't want it to be—you know—
strickland179	DB: Yeah. How did you develop your sense of design—sense of what you could envision?
strickland180	SS: I don't know. From the time I was a kid, really, I wanted to be an architect.	[01:00:28]
strickland181	DB: You wanted sort of a structural—from the beginning?
strickland182	SS: I did, and I'm sure seeing my father build things and stuff all the time was like—it was just more—I don't know. And I don't know why that would particularly apply but I have helped lots of people put manuscripts together. I mean, if I see a whole bunch of poems, I just—some people have a sense for that particular thing and some other people are different; their best thing is at the poem level or at some other level, critical level or whatever, but the place that I seem to operate pretty well is that putting the structure together thing.
strickland183	DB: What do you see at that level? What are you after?
strickland184	SS: I don't know. It's just—I hear something as well as see something. Online it's often a visual thing, but in the manuscript it's like there's this leading tone—like, "How are we going to get in, what's going to lead to this?" and "Do not bore me by putting this next to this because I don't—"
strickland185	SS: You know what I mean, that there's like a—it's not an arc. Do you know what I mean? It's not like a theatrical thing.
strickland186	DB: Okay. You're not thinking of a dramatic arc or anything like that?
strickland187	SS: No, not really, because that's not often what's the best—I've done a lot of editing, I mean, as an editor at Slapering Hol Press: "What is this manuscript really about? What does it really do better than anything else at the heart of it?" That has to come out. So how do you introduce the person to that—the reader? And then how do you complicate it in an interesting way, and how do you pace it so that the person—it's like a reading pace, right?
strickland188	DB: Right, right.
strickland189	SS: And will there be any use to divisions? Will there be use to the naming of divisions? Is it better to suppress that? I don't know. It's just something about the individuality of the work that will suggest—or will suggest, "This is great, but this thing just doesn't go there." And I always ask people to send me all the outtakes, too, because often those do go there and sometimes they took them out because it was too close to the bone or they didn't quite—whatever. Stuff like that.	[01:02:33]
strickland190	DB: Yeah, yeah. When you're working on, say, your own poem—an individual poem—are you revising towards a sound in that way, too? Or do you hear a tone?
strickland191	SS: I don't know if I revise towards a sound but I certainly read it out loud. It's certainly not just a visual thing. It may be conceptual, but it's not conceptual without reference to the other sensory modalities. So for sure it has to read right—in my mouth.
strickland192	DB: Yeah, in your mouth. And has that been, like, the case ever since you started?
strickland193	SS: I think so. I was trained on nursery rhymes.
strickland194	DB: Yeah, right. So it's always the sound—
strickland195	SS: Yeah, I think so.
strickland196	DB: Well then, something like The Red Virgin which is indexical, right, in it's—how did you—did you put your stamp on that?
strickland197	SS: Well, the thing is—when I was first reading Simone Weil I was very upset about the way people responded to her, because either they couldn't stand her religious side or they couldn't stand her political side, and they would name the other one as the whatever—you know—	[01:04:12]
strickland198	DB: Right.
strickland199	SS: No one would see her as like one person—that one person could have these sides, and she could come from that. And I read The Visions of Simone Machard—Brecht's play?—I think is the best work that has been done about her, as a fiction work. There were some other plays and things about her that I thought were unbearably reductionist.
strickland200	DB: Yeah.
strickland201	SS: So I did not want that, and so from that point of view I wanted a lot of materials. You know—some documentary materials, I wanted to cover certain things, and I wanted to use her language. So pretty much, stuff was named the way it was. But then, from that point of view—of how are you going to put them together—it was exactly the fact that there were so many people who had so many different takes on it. So yes, it's almost indexical because—and this was a consideration wherever you started—I wanted you to be able to start anywhere.	[01:05:00]
strickland202	SS: The poems are written that way: so that, if her brother is named, no matter where you start, you'll know it's her brother in some way. Things aren't dropped in. You can make sense of it. It's written so you can make sense of it from wherever you start. You'll have a different impression depending on where you start, and that was part of the point, right? But I think most people will read it straight through. Part of the point was like it's just impossible the number—and again, this is seeing things in the round sort of, that you read and you read and you read, or you have people who are supposedly sympathetic like Robert Coles, you know? Which in his own way was just most reductive of all.
strickland203	DB: Right, Right.
strickland204	SS: And it was interesting to me that the Italian woman—her biography was so much less reductive—that Italian woman psychiatrist, than Coles, and stuff like that?
strickland205	DB: Oh, okay, yeah.	[01:06:35]
strickland206	SS: So is it the way a woman reads it? Is it the way that if you're coming from the political side, if you're coming from the religious side? All these people have too many irons in the fire, right? So I wanted to tell it the way I read it from the documents—I tried to keep it as accurate as far as I was able to. I mean, I didn't make stuff up. In fact, after I'd done it in the year—year and a half, whatever—of putting it together and I stopped reading about her, you know? And I'm like, "Somebody's going to publish some book that completely overturns this whole thing. They'll find out that whatever, this and that..." Right? That didn't happen actually, but I did have that worry for a while: "Let me go out and read all these other books—"
strickland207	DB: Yeah.
strickland208	SS: So and I didn't feel it was bad. But what I also realized was, like, I could get at a lot of things, but I couldn't really get at her thinking. So you have more of that in Losing L'una.
strickland209	SS: You have more of that in-depth stuff where you try to talk about some of her thinking, and a long line of people trying to think in odd ways, you know?	[01:07:38]
strickland210	DB: Yeah.
strickland211	SS: So that was a return to that. But yeah, that indexical thing there in that sense that the book had come out of—
strickland212	DB: Reactions—?
strickland213	SS: —to this polarized assessment of her.
strickland214	DB: Yeah, yeah, right. If you had, at that time, already taken the class with Katherine Hayles, do you think you would have tried to represent that in a digital fashion?
strickland215	SS: Well, possibly, yeah, possibly. There is one little essay called "Seven-League Boots" where I talk—which is a hypertext essay from long, long ago, and she's in there, she's quoted in there in a way. Possibly, yeah.
strickland216	DB: And had she just been an interest of yours for most of your adult life?
strickland217	SS: Well it's very funny because I was—oh, I've lost the name. There was this bookstore in Midtown—a wonderful bookstore in midtown, now gone—and I was in the Philosophy section or something, looking at all brown and gray books—and one pink book. So I took this one pink book which turned out to be a biography of her, and that's how I got started. And then it turned out at that at Sarah Lawrence we had most of her work because there was a man there who was teaching her. I didn't know it at that time, I hadn't heard of her. I just loved the way she wrote. She was a woman who knew her own mind. She wrote with an authority. And I was really tired of—well, I mean, there would be these things: "Oh yeah for a woman, she's sort of a good philosopher." I mean, this was the whole timbre of the 70's and 80's, and I could not—	[01:08:47]
strickland218	DB: Right, right.
strickland219	SS: —women's minds were not well respected. And I just loved the way she wrote. I had a lot of trouble—I mean, again, she let the software pass through all these things. She was doing this political stuff, the factory work and all that, then all of a sudden that's the end of her life in her notebooks—which I think is totally unfair. I mean we judge her on basis of her student notes and notebooks that were never published, and notebooks that didn't include all the mathematics and stuff she'd put in there.
strickland220	DB: Yeah.
strickland221	SS: But you know, when she started going into folklore and stuff like that, I'm like "Whoa wait, you know—bridge too far right?" But then you know, then I eventually caught up with her. But no, still, it's just riveting. The way she writes is just riveting to me. I was just angry that people couldn't see. I just thought that the points of view that were brought to criticize her were just not adequate to what she was, and so that just kind of made me mad.	[01:10:13]
strickland222	DB: Is anger one of the common emotions from which you write?
strickland223	SS: I don't know. It's stimulating. It's like—anger with love, right?
strickland224	DB: Right, right.
strickland225	SS: I just loved it so much, I mean I really admired it so much and it just didn't seem fair—just hadn't been—
strickland226	DB: Yeah.
strickland227	SS: Anyway. Though a lot of people have told me that that's helped them write biographical or life or memoir things, you know—as a way to do that.
strickland228	DB: Yeah. I was struck by how contemporary it seemed. In preparing for this, just reading it and thinking about, in the last decade, all the kind of focused, thematic books—
strickland229	SS: Yeah, on people's lives and stuff—
strickland230	DB: Yeah. And documentary, "Poetry of Witness" and all that, and I was like, "This is 1993."
strickland231	SS: Long ago, yeah.
strickland232	DB: And this is really, you know—that's good.
strickland233	SS: Yeah.
strickland234	DB: As I expected, you've totally blown up all my questions—but it's good, it's good. But I do want to get a little bit more at the revision, and sort of the prewriting and revision process for you—of your—
strickland235	SS: I would never do anything I would call "pre-writing."
strickland236	DB: Okay. Well that's—
strickland237	SS: I don't even know what that is.
strickland238	DB: I guess in like the compositional mode. So when you sit down with your notebooks, I would consider that sort of—	[01:12:03]
strickland239	SS: You'll see there's not one, there's three.
strickland240	DB: Yeah, okay.
strickland241	SS: In fact, there might be a date—that this might say "14 May 2013" and the next date in it might be "20 May 2014." So it might be a year later, right?
strickland242	DB: Right.
strickland243	SS: And it's like, in the meantime, I went to these conferences and took notes, and they're like kind of lying around here. And do I have a chance to get back and look at them? No—because I started to read Meillassoux and I just wrote a paper about Simone Weil and Meillassoux. That was good. But why is it somebody writes something, or is solicited to do something or whatever—and this was religion or literature or, like, Fanny Howe or something—Fanny Howe and I will go to Simone Weil Society, right? And then, but Romana Huk is at Notre Dame and I published at Notre Dame and so I wind up talking to Steve Tulsa—something, whatever, right? I don't even know how I got on Meillassoux, I really don't. I guess—I can't remember, but I was talking to a lot of people about Meillassoux, and then he writes The Number and the Siren, which is like—my God, this book. Do you know this book?
strickland244	DB: No I don't.
strickland245	SS: It's about Mallarmé's Un Coup de Dés and it's the best book of literary criticism I ever read in my whole life!
strickland246	DB: Wow.	[01:13:16]
strickland247	SS: It's so amazing! So then I'm reading this, and then I realize, "Oh my God, all of his philosophy comes out of the way he's talking about this poem!" So it's like the poem—it's Mallarmé' is driving Meillassoux, right? And in the case of Simone Weil, The Iliad really was driving—you know what I mean? And I'm like "Oh this is interesting. Everybody does it the other way, but you know? So yes, then—I do that, or I do some other part, and I still haven't gone back over the notes—from the conference from four years ago or whatever, right?
strickland248	DB: Yeah.
strickland249	SS: But there's kind of, a set of things which is where I'm about to start to write, you know; there's a kind of notebooks like that, and there's other notebooks that are kind of "math-y" or whatever kind of thing, and there might be some that are like "semi-philosophical-literary blah-blah," and I mean they just have different things and there's no real control over them, so at any given moment there's a list of things to do and things that I write at the back of it, or whatever. And they have to be small enough so I can carry around and write on the bus or wherever I happen to be, or if I'm at NYU or whatever.
strickland250	DB: Yeah.
strickland251	SS: I'm part of this program and I get access to the Columbia and NYU libraries, which is great—through the New York Public library, that's the program. So, you know, it's very opportunistic: where things are. I mean, it's like, there's a conference and somebody says, "Do you want to do—be on the panel about something?" Or, "Let's make this work," but then all of a sudden—or whatever.	[01:14:38]
strickland252	SS: And you know, a third of those things never happen.	[01:15:00]
strickland253	DB: Right. I guess I'm wondering, then, how all this "not-controlled-work" and note taking and everything then becomes a poem or poetry?
strickland254	SS: Well, after a while, it just comes to a head or something. Do you know what I mean?
strickland255	DB: Yeah.
strickland256	SS: So it's like, obviously in the case of where somebody says, "Be on a panel or be a paper or we need to do this or whatever"—you know. Or, you do something, you make an app and then you talk about what is it to translate from one form of software to another, or something, but also to sort of kind of make sense—
strickland257	DB: Yeah.	[01:15:42]
strickland258	SS: Or you do this thing, like Sea and Spar, and then somebody wants something for a special issue of Digital Humanities Quarterly and you say, "Okay, we're going to make a paper that's running code." Because that's what people don't do. They don't look at the code and we want to talk about this and that—but those things take time.
strickland259	DB: Oh yeah, absolutely.
strickland260	SS: So you're off doing that and so you get a little bit deflected from where you were with here, right? And then somebody does whatever. So, it's not completely uncontrolled.
strickland261	DB: Yeah, not uncontrolled.
strickland262	SS: Yeah, but—you see these suitcases. So, see this suitcase? This is like a Meillassoux suitcase, then there's a Karen Barad thing so the whole—there's a lot of stuff going on now in my mind where I'm Karen Barad.
strickland263	DB: Okay.
strickland264	SS: So that's kind of this thing here—
strickland265	DB: Yeah.
strickland266	SS: And then these are three talks that I have to be writing on—
strickland267	DB: Oh man, you're busy.
strickland268	SS: —remember including that archive, is a talk at the Beinecke in the archive. This is for a Slovakian magazine, and that's the archive. Oh yeah, I have to be in some kind of feminist cyber panel or whatever kind of thing.	[01:16:48]
strickland269	DB: Okay.
strickland270	SS: This is the paper I have to give in June, which I'm waiting for Ian to come and finish with—I mean, so, those are all the readings, like—so mostly since the two books came out this year I did a lot of readings. And that's it: when you're doing a lot of readings, you're writing the things for the readings, the script for the readings, and stuff like that. So, it's not—but see, these notes are still here from when ELC 2 came out, and we were talking about that—you know, which—I haven't cleared that out or anything. It's between controlled and uncontrolled.
strickland271	DB: Right, okay, okay. But are there ever times when all of a sudden you're like "I need to write this book now."
strickland272	SS: Yeah—and the trouble with that is, I had four grandchildren in the last ten years, and do a lot of babysitting in the first, the pre-school years. For my granddaughters—my son was teaching at Columbia when they were little, so I was going there, both parents working, right? Now he's at Duke, but now my other son has little boys who are almost 3 and 5, and my daughter has been ill for twenty-five years and her care takes a lot of time. So there's, like, things that just—yes. And it used to be that the colonies were the answer to that: to apply and go there. Now I don't have a car, everything I have to carry—and now I have to bring all these little piles I just showed you—
strickland273	DB: You're not going to have a travelling filing cabinet or something?
strickland274	SS: It's just, that doesn't work so well anymore.
strickland275	DB: Yeah.
strickland276	SS: And yet, if I'm right here, then everything is "on call," kind of, in a lot of ways.
strickland277	DB: Sure.
strickland278	SS: So that just gets harder, right? But definitely that happens, in trying to work out how to get the time to do that, becomes an issue and—what can I say?
strickland279	DB: Do you have any new book projects that are closer?
strickland280	SS: Well, one thing is—well, I have new poems. I don't necessarily know that they're a book thing. I've thought about doing a "new and selected" kind of thing, which I haven't done, right?
strickland281	DB: I was thinking about that on the walk over here—like, what a "selected" for you would look like. It would be really fascinating.	[01:19:38]
strickland282	SS: Yeah, because it's so weird, right?
strickland283	DB: Yeah!
strickland284	SS: It's just so different.
strickland285	DB: Yeah, yeah. It really is. It's a whole—
strickland286	SS: —it's very different, so—but whether or not that's a good idea, I don't know. I just don't know.
strickland287	DB: Yeah.
strickland288	SS: It's hard to know where is the best place to put your time. I mean, also, I'm on the board of the ELO and they're doing a lot—
strickland289	DB: That's a lot of time.
strickland290	SS: —a lot of stuff is going on with that, actually it's a lot of work. We are really expanding in a lot of ways and—so it's just—
strickland291	DB: No.
strickland292	SS: Yes, I'd love a whole—you know—if the day were twice as long?
strickland293	DB: Then that day would be—
strickland294	SS: Or if you just had a place to go, you know? But then again, the place to go is—in a way, I guess it's good to go and take nothing with you. But actually, I really want be in touch with these things. I do work off things, you know?
strickland295	DB: Yeah, absolutely.
strickland296	SS: And I do like the collaborative process. I think everything has to become more collaborative, really. I think that's the stuff I'm most interested in: how can we make our—not meld our minds, but have different streams of expertise and interests—we have to learn to talk better to each other, I think.
strickland297	DB: Yeah.
strickland298	SS: To solve something. And then, because I do have these grandchildren, it's like, "What is the most important thing?" And born quite late to my children, right? So I won't see them for such a long time—right?—more. So what's the most important thing for me to be doing with them, and all? You know? It's a question.
strickland299	DB: Yeah. And then, so, were there times in your life where you weren't so busy that you would—?	[01:21:33]
strickland300	SS: No.
strickland301	DB: No?
strickland302	SS: My mother had cancer.
strickland303	DB: Oh.
strickland304	SS: My mother had lung cancer and was ill for twenty years, and for each of those years we were told she had a year left to live.
strickland305	DB: Wow!
strickland306	SS: And my best friend had terminal cancer for the last two and a half years, and for the last year and a half of that she's in hospice and I was going out every month to spend a week with her because it was hospice in her home.
strickland307	DB: Right.
strickland308	SS: So it's been a lot of long term care things that I've actually been involved with, and doing a lot of things at the same time, but those times like the Yaddo, MacDowell, Djerassi, Ragdale—those were really, really wonderful times. I really have to keep that memory of an island of time, and how do you find it and how do you make it for yourself?
strickland309	DB: Right, right. You know, I mean—this may be a bad question, but has the caretaking entered into your—I mean, like, have you thought or started to think about that?
strickland310	SS: It's hard to know. I mean, there's one specific poem, it was in the Best American Poetry this year—"Introductions"—which mentions, in one of its stanzas, my daughter—
strickland311	DB: Okay.
strickland312	SS: And I kind of—in Give the Body Back there's a mother-daughter poem—my mother. But it feels exploitive when you're so up close to people who are really ill and you're dealing with it all the time. It's such a demand to be present to them when you are in contact with them that the writing demand is for distance. Do you see what I mean?
strickland313	DB: Yeah, I do.
strickland314	SS: And I don't find those compatible, but I'm certain that underneath almost everything I care about in the way I think about it is this understanding that there needs to be space for these people who don't have the same chances, and "this is all well and good but have you thought"—you know, that sort of thing, right?
strickland315	DB: Yeah.
strickland316	SS: And I think that's another reason that Simone Weil's thought appeals to me also, because she was always, always understanding that—where people were, really.
strickland317	DB: Right. No, I think I can see that relationship, strongly. In terms of your correspondence and your e-mail and stuff like that, did you start out writing regular letters with your work and sending stuff back and forth, and then moved to kind of considering it via e-mail? I know this is an abrupt shift, but—
strickland318	SS: You mean when you're sending poems out?
strickland319	DB: Yeah. Well, I mean like in your revision process, do you have trusted readers? Do you have people that are helping you?
strickland320	SS: Long ago, in the 70's—like, during the MFA program and stuff like that, there were some groups of people who were, like, we've known each other. So there was a little bit of that, not so much.
strickland321	DB: Yeah.
strickland322	SS: I have one very dear friend, Nancy Knutson who had been in the program with me, she also wrote fiction, and for a long time, every Sunday morning she was in—she moved to New Mexico—we'd call each other up and talk about poems back and forth. Rachel Loden is another person that at times we'd exchange work. She's doing different kind of work now, so—	[01:25:08]
strickland323	DB: Yeah.
strickland324	SS: It's been a long time. Sometimes I send stuff to Denise Duhamel who is also a dear friend, but mostly, after it's almost sort of done.
strickland325	DB: Very close, okay.
strickland326	SS: Yeah. So then, I have a friend in Ireland—I have friends that I correspond with but not in the sense of sending poems, which used to be in paper letters and now it's been mainly supplanted by e-mail.
strickland327	DB: Yeah. And has that changed—has that made any difference to you?
strickland328	SS: It hasn't made a difference in the friendships.
strickland329	DB: Right.
strickland330	SS: And the thing about the poems is that—you see, some people get Give the Body Back, and The Red Virgin, and so on, and then they're just not going to get parts of Dragon Logic and there's an even stronger divide amongst people who just don't get, and they don't want to get, electronic or born-digital literature.
strickland331	DB: Right, right.
strickland332	SS: And I'm pretty much really deeply in both worlds, and they just don't get it. I mean they don't get each other and it's very hard with e-literature because it changes so much that unless you're deeply in it, it's hard to learn it. You know what I mean? You have to really—it takes a lot. Of all the things—so if you're not already in the middle of a "net kind of life"—which, the younger you are, you are, right?
strickland333	DB: Right.
strickland334	SS: So it's like I talk to lots of young [people]—
strickland335	DB: Yeah. That's great!
strickland336	SS: But my old [friends]—you know what I mean? There's like this sharp division, right?
strickland337	DB: Right.
strickland338	SS: So it's not like you can really ask of these—if both these things are in your mind—there are not so many people you can go to, because they're not going to get half of it, one way or another, right?	[01:27:27]
strickland339	DB: Yeah.
strickland340	SS: Though I think that the younger people do get it much more. I mean, I feel like they and I are living in the same world more than—although, I do not have a cell phone, and I must be the only person that anybody knows (or very close to the only person anybody knows) who doesn't have a cell phone, and I get a lot of flak for it. But I just—there are some things I just take a stand against. The social media thing, I understand there are some uses for it, but insofar as these people—insofar as parents holding their children's hands or pushing a carriage are not responding to that child's face?
strickland341	DB: It happens, I know. I know.
strickland342	SS: That bothers me.
strickland343	DB: Yeah.
strickland344	SS: So I think that the way that face-to-face is cut off by the use of social media? I mean two people go to a restaurant and look at their phones? You know?
strickland345	DB: I know.
strickland346	SS: That seems a real loss to me.
strickland347	DB: Yeah. It's very pronounced in New York City. I mean, I've been noticing it—I've only been here a day and I've been noticing it way more than I do out West, but I don't know. Also, I see a lot less people.
strickland348	SS: Yeah, right, right, right.
strickland349	DB: So, I just have a few more questions, and these are kind of about—not feeling, I guess, but—do you have, in terms of the media and the files that you've saved and created over the years, do you have sort of dear feelings towards those? I mean, what is the work? I guess, is the question. Where is it? And what do you feel protective of, or do you feel protective of anything?
strickland350	SS: Well, you're glad for books. Books are going to last longer than almost anything else, in the last 20 years.
strickland351	DB: Yeah.
strickland352	SS: I love books. I do love books. I really strongly feel the limitations insofar as being a creative writer, because I do have some kind of a three-dimensional vision or hope or wish and I see it in digital art and I see it in lots of projects. And they can easily be literary to me, and they're not.
strickland353	DB: Yeah.	[01:30:00]
strickland354	SS: But I would never not want books. You could see that. The minute you start to do digital work, there's a certain way—in the same way that, if you're a theater person—that you have to let something go. Even more than you let a manuscript go. Today's performance was today's performance, and that won't come back. Even if you videotaped it, it really doesn't come back. That's what, you know, plus, videotape does not—so there's something like that: when you realize, and then you realize that in fact, no one may ever read it the way you meant it to be read because, at least for my generation, everybody made their own interface, there was no time to get canonical interfaces for various kinds of work or, you know, genres didn't precipitate out—not enough time for all that. So there's a certain loss there, right?
strickland355	SS: I have no idea. I think that the best way probably at the moment to save digital stuff is to have some video or something of somebody using it, plus people's notes, interview them about what they intended or whatever, save the code if you can, and adding emulation migration. All of it is so burdensome, you know? It's really hard. On the other hand, I do send some email. There are a few folders that I've designated to go to Duke. I definitely don't want all my email to go to Duke, right? But it's very—because you don't even know—I mean, I also purge my email. Not that that does any good; but like I don't save, you know, but so I try to just keep working—only working stuff, and if it's done, it's gone. Now I pay a price for that sometimes because I might want to go back and look at it, you know, but on balance—like file maintenance is huge, and I want to be able to find what I need. You see, I do a lot of different things. So to find what I need is already a problem. So I don't want tons and tons and tons of stuff around and I'm not like those, you know, got to document every day of their life and their dry cleaning ticket and everything, I'm like, "Christ!" So I don't want that.	[01:31:02]
strickland356	SS: I would hope that there's some place or memory or some collection—some server somewhere—that some of this stuff can be seen and saved in some form. This whole idea, the signup kind of erase history altogether, and like—what is history? We're just nothing but a moving front. I think that's a huge loss, and I think—I'm not invested in people saving every revision. I'm not. Do you know? In some cases it might be interesting to see some of the things, but basically, the books—
strickland357	DB: Yeah, the books.	[01:33:16]
strickland358	SS: The books and the notebooks between them I think would be more interesting than seeing every page of every—do you know? That seems very fetishistic to me, in a weird way. Yeah, it could have gone another, whatever—but it didn't. And I'm not saying the right thing turned out or anything. I think I've said "opportunistic" to you a lot. But I think you can way overdo it, and on the other hand, I'm not like, "whatever"...you know? I am invested to a degree. I don't think you could ever work in a library and not feel that way—
strickland359	DB: Yeah.
strickland360	SS: —and especially these things that got saved that nobody wanted at the time, and later you were so glad to find out that somebody saved? I really appreciate that about libraries, too. So people who want to do that kind of work, I really honor that.
strickland361	DB: Last question: when you send stuff to Duke, like when you're sending digital stuff, how does that work?
strickland362	SS: Well, there's a digital librarian—this guy.
strickland363	DB: This guy!
strickland364	SS: They both changed! Unfortunately, Willis is leaving to go to the Newberry, so the two guys I worked with so far—first the digital one left, and now Willis has left, he's the other one—but they've been replaced, right? So once a year I tell him which email files, right? And they go to do the email files. And they have my—I mean, they have the stuff online.
strickland365	DB: Yeah, so they have archived that themselves.
strickland366	SS: Yeah, they archived that themselves. And then I don't do a—I put a lot of stuff in a box. I sort of try to include a paper that says very roughly what's in there. But I can't—to do—to really go through and catalogue the stuff, or something, it's like it's that or see my grandchildren, or do my work, you know? And of the three, it's like—no.	[01:35:00]
strickland367	DB: Somebody else will do that.
strickland368	SS: It's like, I try to give a little bit of an indication, but it's not wonderful. But anyway, I haven't sent it off for a while. I was good for a while, I sent a lot of stuff out, but getting the two books out and the things out, you get a little lull from that to then send the stuff. The online stuff is really accessible in a lot of ways, actually, and my website—which has kind of stayed up in its form for a really long time. Again, I think the design was good.
strickland369	DB: It is! That's an amazing part of it.
strickland370	SS: 2002, right?
strickland371	DB: Yeah.
strickland372	SS: So I think it has held up, and I think you can get at quite a lot of stuff too. None of the Facebook-type stuff, like, "This is my dog or this is my lunch" or whatever. But the stuff about the work.
strickland373	DB: That's the important stuff. Well, thanks a lot.
strickland374	SS: Okay.
strickland375	DB: I think we've got a good—
strickland376	SS: This is something called a technical interview?
strickland377	DB: That was a technical interview. Welcome to the technical interview!
strickland378	[end of audio]	[01:36:43]
vanwinckel1	Devin Becker: OK, So, if you would please state for the camera your name, your date of birth, and where we are?	[0:00]
vanwinckel2	Nance Van Winckel: OK, I'm Nance van Winckel and I was born October 24th, 1951. We are in Liberty Lake, Washington.
vanwinckel3	DB: OK, and you've been living here for?
vanwinckel4	NVW: I've been in this area since 1990.
vanwinckel5	DB: OK
vanwinckel6	NVW: But my husband and I just moved out here to this little condo in '07
vanwinckel7	DB: OK, and by the way, it's a beautiful, beautiful view of the lake.
vanwinckel8	DB: OK, so here's the sort of digital and physical sort of question, but… So, what genres do you work in as a writer?
vanwinckel9	NVW: Poetry, primarily, but also I write short stories.
vanwinckel10	DB: What kinds of devices do you own or have access to for writing?
vanwinckel11	NVW: Well, for writing… Electronic devices, you mean?
vanwinckel12	DB: Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.
vanwinckel13	NVW: Yeah, I work on 3 different computers. This big iMac here that I use and then I have a laptop Mac, and then I also have an iPad.
vanwinckel14	DB: OK, and you write on the iPad?
vanwinckel15	NVW: I have a keyboard extension for it.
vanwinckel16	DB: And what program do you use to write in? Do you just write in like notes or…?
vanwinckel17	NVW: I use Pages on the app
vanwinckel18	DB: Oh, you use Pages.
vanwinckel19	NVW: I email it to myself, and then I move it in to Word.
vanwinckel20	DB: OK-
vanwinckel21	NVW: I use that one when I'm on the road.
vanwinckel22	DB: When you're on the road, it's just the iPad…?
vanwinckel23	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel24	DB: And you're on the road quite a bit?
vanwinckel25	NVW: When I go to Vermont-
vanwinckel26	DB: OK, when you go to Vermont-
vanwinckel27	NVW: --when I'm doing any kind of traveling
vanwinckel28	DB: You don't travel with the laptop. You just travel with the iPad?
vanwinckel29	NVW: Yeah, I don't really take the laptop with me. I have an older laptop and it's pretty heavy.
vanwinckel30	DB: Yeah, they seriously are.
vanwinckel31	DB: OK, So you have 3 devices. And you are a Mac user?
vanwinckel32	NVW: Yeah, I'm clueless with PC-clueless.
vanwinckel33	DB: Would you call one of these devices you primary device?
vanwinckel34	NVW: This one
vanwinckel35	DB: That iMac?
vanwinckel36	NVW: Uh-hmm
vanwinckel37	DB: OK, and then so, how do you… (You sort of said this but) How do you manage your files between your devices? You email them to yourself?
vanwinckel38	NVW: Yes. With the iPad I email files to myself (Do I do it any other way?). With the laptop, I have put things on a memory stick and moved things back and forth that way. When I have to give a presentation in Vermont and I have been doing a lot of powerpoint things lately with art, text and art. I bring a memory stick and use that to set up at the college. They have all good Macs and a good tech person who will help me get set up.
vanwinckel39	DB: So for your work, now, do you work exclusively on computers, or do you kind of go between the physical and digital environments at all?
vanwinckel40	NVW: I work in longhand, on yellow legal tablets, or just whatever. I have different notebooks that I have. That's what all these notebooks are here; these are my various writing projects in process. They each get their own little notebook.
vanwinckel41	NVW: I worked longhand for… Gosh, I don't know-at least 3 or 4 more drafts, at least. Sometimes more like 10 or 12. It just depends. Some things give me more groove than others before I will type something.
vanwinckel42	DB: And we're going to come back to that.
vanwinckel43	NVW: OK
vanwinckel44	DB: What's the transition from the notebook into the digital? Do you type it out yourself?
vanwinckel45	NVW: Yeah.
vanwinckel46	DB: OK, and is that a moment of revision for you usually, or is it--?
vanwinckel47	NVW: Yeah, yeah
vanwinckel48	DB: OK, and …
vanwinckel49	NVW: And then once I get it in to a document, I'll probably revise it again a number of times.
vanwinckel50	DB: OK
vanwinckel51	NVW: I'm doing different revision operations (Maybe we're going to go with this?)
vanwinckel52	DB: We're definitely going to talk about revision more in depth. Yeah, that sort of like locating the practice now and then we'll see where we're at with that. So, these are the questions that, professionally, I'm interested in.
vanwinckel53	DB: So, how do you then save these notebooks in your pre-writing and all that? I mean, is there a… Do you just keep them in a box somewhere, or…?
vanwinckel54	NVW: This is 'they.'
vanwinckel55	DB: This is it, OK. But like your older ones, like ones with finished projects?
vanwinckel56	NVW: They're all down there on a shelf.
vanwinckel57	DB: They're all down there on a shelf?
vanwinckel58	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel59	DB: OK, and then for your extra digital files, how do you save those? Do you save them just as Word docs?
vanwinckel60	NVW: Yeah, I save them as Word docs and then when I'm done with them and the books are published, then I just put them on a back-up disk and take them off my hard drive here.
vanwinckel61	DB: OK, do you print out your writing to revise it?
vanwinckel62	NVW: Often when it gets to the computer stage, not so much.
vanwinckel63	DB: OK
vanwinckel64	NVW: I'm just working on the screen for quite a while.
vanwinckel65	DB: And then a sort of last section on this is: how do you back up your work and (as you say) when you're finished with something, you put it on an external hard drive. Is that your digital archival back-up?
vanwinckel66	NVW: Right
vanwinckel67	DB: OK, and you don't use any Cloud-based systems like Dropbox or Google Drive, or anything like that?
vanwinckel68	NVW: Yeah, I do use Dropbox but… Not really so much for backup, but to send things to people.
vanwinckel69	DB: To send things and share things, and...
vanwinckel70	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel71	DB: OK, are files saved in more than one location then?
vanwinckel72	NVW: Well, I do have a back-up drive and-
vanwinckel73	DB: So, on the hard drive on the computer and then in the back-up drive as well?
vanwinckel74	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel75	DB: Do you keep print copies of your final drafts, or…?
vanwinckel76	NVW: Oh, yeah
vanwinckel77	DB: OK, so that you have a paper archive as well?
vanwinckel78	NVW: Yes
vanwinckel79	DB: What do you do? How do you keep that? Just in the boxes like the notebooks kind of, or…?
vanwinckel80	NVW: Yeah, they're usually with the notebooks. I just, once I print them out, I do some final kind of tinkering usually with the galleys. I'll keep a copy of the galleys when they book's actually coming out, and that gets filed with the notebooks then-when I'm done with it.
vanwinckel81	DB: OK, and this is kind of just a quick question from me, personally, and librarians but… Have you ever received or sort out information about methods for digital archiving activities, like best practices?
vanwinckel82	NVW: No
vanwinckel83	DB: No, OK. And would you be interested in information about that?
vanwinckel84	NVW: You know, maybe. I was thinking about that the other day. A couple of… I was thinking about making a book of selected stories from my 4 books of stories--
vanwinckel85	DB: Oh, yeah
vanwinckel86	NVW: --And realizing that my first 2 books of stories, I don't know if I can access the computer files of them anymore. They're like on floppy disks, or zip-disk, or something.
vanwinckel87	DB: Oh, yeah. A zip-disk
vanwinckel88	NVW: I don't know if I could. You know? Does that mean I'm going to have to retype those suckers, or what?
vanwinckel89	DB: There's usually a way to get them
vanwinckel90	NVW: Yeah, if I could even find them.
vanwinckel91	DB: Yeah, yeah. So, there's always that question
vanwinckel92	NVW: There's that, yes. You know, when we moved out here… Yeah, so that would be a major task-to locate and … So, I could probably use some help with that
vanwinckel93	DB: OK, yeah, and that's definitely something typical of that period, especially the 90s with all the different word processing softwares and all the different ways of saving them sort of put people Yeah, what do you do?)'
vanwinckel94	DB: So, that was a sort of quick beginning	[00:08:45]
vanwinckel95	NVW: OK
vanwinckel96	DB: (I'm just going to check this to make sure… It looks like…)
vanwinckel97	DB: How long have you been writing in a more professional capacity, in a way that was sort of feeding you or giving you some sort of assistance…? When do think that you started writing as a vocation? Or as something that led to something that would be your vocation, which is probably teaching?
vanwinckel98	NVW: I guess since graduate school. I went to graduate school and I thought I would just do that for a year that was my plan. I would go to graduate school in creative writing for a year and then I would go to medical school. I had been a pre-med major all through college but when I got to graduate school I was totally happy doing my writing thing and I never looked back. So I started my so-called practice there where I worked every day on my writing. That was 1975.
vanwinckel99	DB: And where was that?
vanwinckel100	NVW: I went to the University of Denver.
vanwinckel101	DB: And was that a one year program?
vanwinckel102	NVW: No I actually stayed the regular two years.
vanwinckel103	DB: So you stayed 2 years and got your mfa. My next question is how would you describe the arc of your career? Where went from there and then elaborate?
vanwinckel104	NVW: From there, I taught. I got my first teaching job at Marymount College of Kansas, now defunct. So I taught there for three years and then I got a job at Lake Forest College, which is just north of Chicago, and I taught there for 11 years, and then I came out here in 1990, and I've been here ever since.
vanwinckel105	DB: And you retired from ..
vanwinckel106	NVW: I retired from Eastern (Washington) in '07, but I'm continuing to teach at Vermont College.
vanwinckel107	DB: So now we're going to get to the specific writing practices generally, and I have it delimited into three stages: a drafting/prewriting/notebook stage, and then an organizational stage, and then an archival/storage stage. And I'd like to go through and ask you about your practices by stage, and talk about those stage by stage.	[00:11:12]
vanwinckel108	NVW: That makes sense.
vanwinckel109	DB: I'd like to start by talking about the ways you draft and create your work initially. So what is your typical compositional practice? And what I'm interested in here is, when you first started writing how were you generating and composing your writing at that point?
vanwinckel110	NVW: So yeah, early on - one of the things that's different now- is that early on I would probably just work on "a" poem, so I would write. I would have a page in my notebook, and there were lines, and I would move things around on the page, and then I would have another page in the notebook with a different poem. But over the years I've started working on maybe two or three poems almost kind of simultaneously, on the same page, which feels kind of nutty, but what I was experiencing that led me this way was that a lot of times things would be coming to me - images, lines --- that didn't seem to belong to the poem I thought I was working on. So I realize it might be helpful to not confine myself. So that's why that was one of the main transitions. I think that happened maybe half-way along. In the late-eighties or so I started experimenting with that and I liked it. I liked having just a page with a poem one margin, and another going down another margin, and one going across the bottom. Something like that.
vanwinckel111	DB: On one notebook page?
vanwinckel112	NVW: Yeah, on one page. And then a lot of times what would happen is - I didn't like one or two or all three of them, and eventually one of those poems would kind of gel and get its own page.
vanwinckel113	DB: It's own page in the notebook?
vanwinckel114	NVW: Yeah.
vanwinckel115	DB: Could you put that at a certain book, or was that just sort of gradual?
vanwinckel116	NVW: I think where I really started experimenting with that was a book called Beside Ourselves.
vanwinckel117	DB: That was 2003 or something
vanwinckel118	NVW: Yeah, that was really also the first book that was more a deliberate series.
vanwinckel119	DB: Yeah, I think I kind of figure out where that happened, and see that.
vanwinckel120	NVW: And then I liked that. I like working in series so much when I was writing that book that I also just decided I wanted to keep moving in that direction. I liked those series poems. And they maybe leant themselves more to that practice with several poems happening at the same time in early draft stages.
vanwinckel121	DB: How is that different than your fiction writing?	[00:15:10]
vanwinckel122	NVW: I don't really see a lot of similarities between writing stories and writing poems in terms of the drafting process … well, in terms of anything. Stories are really different. One of the first things I learned about writing stories in the drafting process is "oh! it kind of helps to know a few things about what happens in this story" unlike a poem where you're just kind of launching into the unknown. It seemed helpful to have a few scenes in mind. What some of the lines of tension, story lines, almost, not an outline, but I would often write down four or five sentences that would later become scenes.
vanwinckel123	DB: And that would happen in the notebook?
vanwinckel124	NVW: Yeah. Or just a scrap of paper in the car when I'm driving.
vanwinckel125	DB: And then did you grab those scraps of paper and put them in a notebook. Did you accumulate that detritus of composition …
vanwinckel126	NVW: Once I write the scene I throw out the piece of paper.
vanwinckel127	DB: So it's gone. That's gone.
vanwinckel128	NVW: But then my process in making stories would be - I try to write a scene a day or so in the initial drafting phase and then I just try to stay with that scene. Blow out the edges. Often it's like three times as long as it's going to actually be in the final story. Usually compressing, compressing, compressing, but initially I kind of move around, see what's happening in the periphery, sort of stay in one scene at a time and I don't worry about the order. I'm not writing the first scene first. I often start with the middle scene. I kind of know I'm writing the middle scene. I move around the chronology of the story because I have these lists. And often when I'm working on one scene I think of another scene and then I'll just write it on another sheet of paper, again, a sentence that'll prompt me so I don't forget. The process is very different [from writing poems]. When a story is happening, when I'm getting an early draft. It comes really fast. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Because it takes all my time. I've been known to cancel classes - I'll say I'm sorry I can't come in today.
vanwinckel129	DB: That's dedication.
vanwinckel130	NVW: Because I feel like I'm going to lose it.
vanwinckel131	DB: So when you said it's happening it feels like it's come to you, and it's not inspiration, it's accumulation?
vanwinckel132	NVW: So much is going on. I go out and I take a walk every afternoon in this park. It's actually part of my writing process. I take a walk in the afternoon, and it's like 'shut up' I'm just trying to take a walk!' People are talking in my head. It feels like this overpowering thing when I'm working on a story. It just comes over me and wakes me up in the morning. People wake me up in the morning. They are chattering away. It's very unnerving. I often push back at a story until I am really sure that I have quite a few of the building blocks in place. Because otherwise it just seems like a struggle and a fight. And it's going to occupy - it takes me like 10 ten-hour days in a row for a story.
vanwinckel133	DB: And this is all hand-written too?
vanwinckel134	NVW: Yes.
vanwinckel135	DB: Does your hand cramp up?
vanwinckel136	NVW: No.
vanwinckel137	DB: I guess your thinking and then you're writing down and then you're thinking.
vanwinckel138	NVW: Yeah. I don't know about the hand but the brain ..
vanwinckel139	NVW: And then, it's so much… Because I don't… I don't know how other writers do this but because I'm not writing the scenes in order, I'm kind of deliberately writing them out of order. I write the scene I see most clearly in my mind first and I'm not worrying about where it's going to go. Then I just put the whole thing away for a long time-that initial mess of a draft-and worry later about kind of arranging the scenes. I'm often moving things around not based on when they happened but what's more interesting to come next.
vanwinckel140	DB: OK, and so when did… Were you studying fiction as well as poetry in your graduate school? When did you start to write these stories?
vanwinckel141	NVW: I did take up a fiction writing class in grad school. I was in the poetry group but we had to take a fiction class, and I was terrible. I was terrible at it because I didn't have any sense of what made a story. But when I started teaching, especially when I moved to Lake Forest College, they thought, "well any poet can teach fiction writing. It's debatable if we can get a fiction writer who can teach poetry." So, they hired thinking that I could figure it out.
vanwinckel142	NVW: So, I think I just accidentally taught myself to write fiction by trying to help my students make their stories better and trying to diagnose: 'What does this story need?'
vanwinckel143	NVW: I remember so many days walking to my fiction writing class and trying to think about what I was going to say to this writer about her story-how to address its troubles-and I realized that I was internalizing all of this. And then the first time I got a sabbatical, I remember I was driving into Chicago for a little adventure for the day (and I was so happy I had this sabbatical I was going to work on poems, of course) and I got this idea for a story. I remember I was just writing on my car seat while I'm driving-just this little note to myself about what the story-kind of just a synopsis, like one sentence of what it would be. By the time I got in to Chicago, I had 5 story synopses written on this piece of paper, and then I just came home. That's what I did for my whole sabbatical-I wrote a bunch of stories and that was the 1st book of stories. Limited Lifetime Warranty, it was called.
vanwinckel144	DB: Yeah, and what year was that?
vanwinckel145	NVW: I think that was like 1983 or so.
vanwinckel146	DB: OK, and so you've been… Stories kind of happened to you. And they've been similar the whole time that you've been writing?
vanwinckel147	NVW: Uh-hmm'
vanwinckel148	DB: Have poems, in similar ways, come upon you? Or is it a different process than that?	[00:23:00]
vanwinckel149	NVW: Poems are more like a daily practice for me. I like poems. They don't… For me, they're more about sound and imagery, voice. Who's talking in my poems-They're often some part of me that I didn't really know it was there. You know, some aspect of personality that I'm kind of exploring who uses a language a different way maybe than my ordinary daily life self.
vanwinckel150	NVW: So, I like that kind of quick pop of a poem.
vanwinckel151	DB: Do you start mostly with a line or an image, or does it change?
vanwinckel152	NVW: I like a line with an image in it.
vanwinckel153	DB: OK
vanwinckel154	NVW: I like… One time I was writing an article about Charles Wright's poetry (I really like Charles Wright), and I said something in there in the review about: "the hand of the image in the glove of sound." I took that out of the review because I thought that sounded a little precious or something, but for me I like that kind of thought… They're sort of indivisible.
vanwinckel155	NVW: They come together.
vanwinckel156	NVW: But I remember talking to Charles one time and I asked him a lot of the same questions you're asking me about composition because I was taking him to the airport after our reading and I'm plugging him for everything he can tell me about how he works. He says, 'Well, you know, after I do 3 or 4 drafts then I'll turn it over to my ear.'
vanwinckel157	NVW: I liked that.
vanwinckel158	NVW: He said, 'I drive around town and do errands-go in the store, stuff like that and I memorize the poem I'm working on and then I just start moving the words and the lines around, and then I start moving the lines and the stanzas around. Just kind of trying to figure out. I'm listening to the sonic values.
vanwinckel159	NVW: I liked that. I'm doing that.
vanwinckel160	DB: So, I guess that's a good space to move on to revision. I mean, so when you're revising a poem, are you revising mostly by sound, or the sonic values, or are there different stages?	[00:25:40]
vanwinckel161	NVW: Well, you know, every poem just presents different troubles to me. I guess these are some of the questions I have to ask myself (but this is just for me. I don't know that these would be other people's problems by any means but). I'm asking myself, 'Who the heck is talking at this part? Who is this person?' Because sometimes I just- And I mean that in a physical, literal way. I have to see a figure almost. You know, maybe it's me, but it's me when I'm 12, or it's me with big, red hair.
vanwinckel162	NVW: So, I'm asking: Who is this person? Where is she, or he-sometimes I think I'm in a kind of gender shift. I like that because I was a real tomboy as a little kid. I think I kind of squashed that little tomboy down and he likes to come back and say things once in a while. He's a little bit of a sassy, snotty kid. And I like him!
vanwinckel163	NVW: So, who is she; where are we in the poem? I need to get located in time and space. And what the heck is going on? What dramatically is happening in the poem? A lot of times I'll have a fix on one or the other of these questions and am really feeling unclear about the others.
vanwinckel164	NVW: So, I kind of know questions to ask myself, and that's what I do in the really early stages of drafting a poem and trying to figure out the answers to some of those.
vanwinckel165	DB: And how do these questions translate into the basic physical manifestation of your writing? Are you still in your notebooks working with this?
vanwinckel166	NVW: Yes, still in notebooks
vanwinckel167	DB: And are you writing these questions in the pages, or…?
vanwinckel168	NVW: No, no I'm just… What I'm doing is I'm just giving my imagination a chore, a task. I'm staring in to space and trying to see: where is the set; where is this unfolding? Trying to give myself-
vanwinckel169	DB: I'm interested in this material, and I'm realizing-
vanwinckel170	NVW: That's right, you're a poet, too.
vanwinckel171	DB: But I mean it's also like, [writing] happens so much up here [in the head]. It doesn't happen on the page-it doesn't happen. It happens a lot, a lot just going to the store and thinking about things, listening to your own sounds, which is another hard thing to document, or to sort of record.
vanwinckel172	NVW: Yeah, and see, none of this takes place with fiction. With fiction, you sort of have that. You got all that as you walk in to the first scene.
vanwinckel173	DB: Right, well then, what is your mode when you're revising a story? Like how do you work through the drafts of a story?	[00:28:50]
vanwinckel174	NVW: Well, with a story I'm really I really think a lot more: why does this happen? or why did this happen? (in the past tense). I ask myself a lot of questions about motivation, with characters, on what their relationships are like; how did they get to this moment. I'm often trying to think about some details or back story.
vanwinckel175	NVW: Again, all these things--it's really helped to have heard myself ask my students these questions for the last 30 years because they're kind of in there.
vanwinckel176	DB: I bet.
vanwinckel177	NVW: Yeah, the questions to ask yourself- But I think what I'm mainly doing once I have addressed some of these questions, mainly have to do with interiority, and psychology of people. In revision, I'm just trying to get the story to move along. I'm really paying most attention to the pace, and I think in that regard, now poetry and fiction maybe have a little more similarities when you get to that stage of revision where you're really starting to tighten.
vanwinckel178	NVW: (Are we there now? Is that what we're talking about?)
vanwinckel179	DB: (Yeah, absolutely)
vanwinckel180	DB: (OK)
vanwinckel181	NVW: So then with a poem, I slash mercilessly. I'm a slasher, and I move things around, but often when I'm moving around, I've got too many lines on the landscape, on a row here. I've got 10 lines about the freaking place where we are, that's boring. But sometimes I won't cut them-I'll just take 4 of them and put them in a different place. I don't worry too much about like how to get back there because that's easy to do later.	[00:30:30]
vanwinckel182	NVW: Same in fiction, I'm really thinking about pacing. I'm thinking about- The opening of the story, I'll just start with a scene that we're going to catch back up to in the middle because it's got some interesting dialogue or something interesting that's going on with the characters. I'm going to start there and then circle back, and then catch back up to it midway through the story, 'Oh, here's where that scene comes.'
vanwinckel183	NVW: That's typical for me to move around like that. So, I'm just going, 'OK, we've got to see the dialogue. Now, we're going to have: how did these all start. Now, we're going to have a scene where we've got some dream or some thinking. Now we're going to go back to dialogue.' I'm just kind of having some syncopation of pacing things.
vanwinckel184	DB: And that kind of happens throughout your books, too, right? Not only within the story but within a collection of stories- there's sort of that same repetition of images, repetition of scenes. Or not repetitions, but kind of allusions to the same place and time and space.
vanwinckel185	DB: So .. When you're revising the entire book, or when you're putting together the book itself, is that also happening?
vanwinckel186	NVW: Yes.
vanwinckel187	DB: OK, so have these modes of revision that sort of focus on pacing, the moving around and changes, have these changed over the course of your career? When you were first starting out writing, did you have to come to this kind of way of revising, or was it there from the beginning?
vanwinckel188	NVW: No, it's been a slow, gradual process.
vanwinckel189	DB: OK, and then in the beginning … Were you doing it more by the book, so to speak …?
vanwinckel190	NVW: Oh, gosh. I don't know how I was doing anything at the beginning. You know, my first book of poems, I had help. I've never had an editor again like I had with my very first book.
vanwinckel191	NVW: Larry Lieberman at the University of Illinois Press. He weeded out some of the weaker poems but also helped me to shape up some new things I was working on, and put them in. Helped me with the arrangement and, you know, I've never had help like that again. But that was very instructive to me. He would write me these interesting little letters where he would explain why he thought this ought to go here, this go there, and this stanza needed to be gone, this was stupid …
vanwinckel192	NVW: It was just so helpful to have somebody be such a close reader with me. I've never had that again, ever.
vanwinckel193	DB: So, do people play a role in your revision process now, or is it pretty much just you?	[00:33:56]
vanwinckel194	NVW: Well, my husband reads everything and he's a really, really tough critic-really, really tough.
vanwinckel195	DB: That's good to have.
vanwinckel196	NVW: It's very good, but… he's a smart reader and he also kind of know what I'm capable of, and if I don't measure up, he'll tell me.
vanwinckel197	DB: Yeah, so you don't… you're not corresponding with other writers with poems, or…?
vanwinckel198	NVW: I have a couple of fiction writer friends that I have shared work with. A novel… I had a 2-book contract with the book of stories before this one, and they wanted the second thing to be a novel-the publisher who I told you they decided they were going to go quit fiction
vanwinckel199	DB: Right, right
vanwinckel200	NVW: --fiction. They wanted the 2nd book to be a novel. So, I tried three times to write a novel, and I got 200 pages in three times. I showed a couple of those books to friends who are fiction writers and they confirmed for me what I thought was true. The way I phrase I phrase it to myself is: they didn't have a big enough engine.
vanwinckel201	NVW: I like short stories-
vanwinckel202	DB: I know. I'm not-
vanwinckel203	NVW: I like the go-cart.
vanwinckel204	DB: I like short stories, too. I was struck though in Quake … I was reading that and I thought… I mean, it read to me and felt to me a lot like the way that Jennifer Egan's Visit by the Goon Squad worked, in that separate stories were all kind of investigating certain kinds of dilemmas and interesting kinds of metaphorical or metaphysical ideas.
vanwinckel205	NVW: Well, thank you. I like that Goon Squad book, too.
vanwinckel206	DB: Yeah, well, I mean, what if she'd called this a novel… I mean, I was just wondering. It's not…
vanwinckel207	DB: Anyway, there's just… It's just very arbitrary, but it seems like you composed them very much kind of separately but they are related, right? I mean, they're linked stories.
vanwinckel208	NVW: Yeah, they've all been linked.
vanwinckel209	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel210	NVW: I really love all the different possibilities of ways to link stories, but in terms of the engine, I like a little small engine that I feel like I can fix what's wrong-with the little, small engine.
vanwinckel211	DB: Yeah, I get that.
vanwinckel212	NVW: And I don't know if I could… The novel thing, it's kind of overwhelming for me to think about how much you have to sustain; how much it needs to drive the big novel.
vanwinckel213	DB: Right
vanwinckel214	NVW: I love novels. I love reading them, but I'm intimidated by the arc, how huge it needs to be, and how much (maybe) you need to know before you sit down.
vanwinckel215	DB: Right, there's a certain research part of it.
vanwinckel216	DB: Does your writing entail any sort of research, historical or otherwise…?
vanwinckel217	NVW: Yeah, Quake was a good example. I loved doing all that research on the gypsy culture and the country-I just loved that, and that just really fed my stories when I was working on it. And this new book that has a dinosaur dig in it, that was really fun. My husband and I went on a dig in Montana. That's part of the research for that. It was fun.
vanwinckel218	DB: Did they just have that like dinosaur versus dinosaur discovery, or something, this summer? Did you see this?
vanwinckel219	NVW: Eh-hmm
vanwinckel220	DB: Like this private digger found these perfectly reserved fossils of like a tyrannosaurus rex or like stegosaurus like right next to each other, they must've died like mid-fight. And they sold… Like instead of giving it to the Smithsonian, they sold it at auction for some ridiculous price.
vanwinckel221	NVW: Really?
vanwinckel222	DB: There was some sort of debate about that.
vanwinckel223	NVW: Just like a couple of femurs or something, or a couple of… Or the whole--?
vanwinckel224	DB: The whole
vanwinckel225	NVW: --the whole features? Wow!
vanwinckel226	DB: I mean, it was just like an insane find in the Montana's bone district.
vanwinckel227	NVW: Well, what I understood was… This isn't pertaining to your thing but what I heard was that all those glacial floods (what happened) and they basically washed all these bones over. So, there'd be like this giant bone bed of 20 different species just because they've been washed by the flood like that at the same place.
vanwinckel228	DB: You probably know more of that. I just thought that was sort of exciting. '
vanwinckel229	...	[00:38:43]
vanwinckel230	DB: I guess a couple more questions about revisions. One of the like… I've been reading this book called The Work of Revision which is really an interesting book kind of tracing the history of revision from the Romantic up to the Modernist Period, and then kind of like how textual criticism works with it. She was… Her name… Hannah Sullivan wrote it, and she was sort of delineating kind of three modes of revision. One being a creative or additive, like Joyce adding all this stuff to Ulysses, and then this sort of excisive or subtractive way that you seem to do, and then there's that sort of substitution. And I'm wondering is there a primary mode between those three that you used for your revision or is it a combination?
vanwinckel231	NVW: I would say I really kind of start with the accretion first, and then go in to the subtraction. And then probably this substitution is like a tinkering I do at the very end.
vanwinckel232	DB: OK, and physically, where do these processes happen? I mean, when you're taking something away, does that happen in the notebook, or does that happen on the computer, or does it happen in both spaces?
vanwinckel233	NVW: Usually, I've excised much of what I'm going to take out before I type it up.
vanwinckel234	DB: OK
vanwinckel235	NVW: So, I probably-as I said, I probably do 2 or 3 handwritten drafts and I'll actually rip the notebook page out. I have notebooks and notebooks where I have a big X through the page so that I do not get confused that I'm actually done with this version, and now if I look hard enough in the notebook, there is a later version of these poems. But I throw the old, ripped up pages in the back of the notebook, and there's a newer version somewhere in there. But the older ones are fatter and often… I'm also experimenting with line break, then too, with the shaping issues…
vanwinckel236	DB: So, just to confirm, you're doing that in the notebook?
vanwinckel237	NVW: In the notebook still.
vanwinckel238	DB: OK
vanwinckel239	NVW: And then I feel like when I move it to the computer, I'm sort of getting to a place where I want to look at it… There's something that… I'm sure you're going to hear this with lots of writers my age-that there's something about when you type it up that starts to make it look permanent, especially for me in terms of the shape of the poem, the line lengths especially in a poem. I'm less inclined to fiddle with line lengths once I've got it on the computer. I do that. For some reason it still feels easier for me to do it on the page because like I just stick my slashes in there.
vanwinckel240	DB: OK, so once they're actually broken in to lines on the computer, then it seems… You don't feel like you have that freedom to do--?
vanwinckel241	NVW: Well, I do. I do.
vanwinckel242	DB: Right
vanwinckel243	NVW: I do experiment or something. I'll go, 'Oh, this is 15 lines. That's so close to a sonnet. Why don't I help it along?' You know?
vanwinckel244	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel245	NVW: So, then-
vanwinckel246	DB: You feel like there should be another term for a 15-line poem.
vanwinckel247	NVW: Yes'
vanwinckel248	DB: OK, so and then at that point, are the poems ordered into the way you'd like them in the book?	[00:42:25]
vanwinckel249	NVW: Oh, no. Never
vanwinckel250	DB: OK, so how's that… What's that process like?
vanwinckel251	NVW: That's just another process of just printing out all the poems and just living with them. That takes, I don't know maybe a year, two, maybe even longer sometimes of experimenting with sections, you know, the arrangement. I'm working right now on a book of prose poems-just really struggling with what's it even going to be in this book, sorting-
vanwinckel252	DB: So, there's a number… So, once you get to the computer, are you putting like all the poems from one notebook in one word file say, or you're putting them in individually?
vanwinckel253	NVW: No, I don't put… Each poem is its own file until I really start to make the book as a book.
vanwinckel254	DB: So, just technically, then you call that file whatever the title of the poem is?
vanwinckel255	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel256	DB: And then save it in a folder with…?
vanwinckel257	NVW: My folder is called "Poems."
vanwinckel258	DB: No, that's fine
vanwinckel259	NVW: I know, and there are some subfolders in there like-
vanwinckel260	DB: OK, for a book would you make a subfolder then, or…?
vanwinckel261	NVW: Oh, then each book gets its own file then.
vanwinckel262	DB: OK
vanwinckel263	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel264	DB: OK, but… So the poems are kind of in one big folder, and then as they accumulate in to a book then they'll be one file.
vanwinckel265	NVW: Exactly, and when they get published then I put them in another file called "Published Poems."
vanwinckel266	DB: OK
vanwinckel267	NVW: So, I don't get confused in sending stuff out still.
vanwinckel268	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel269	NVW: And then there's some old… You know, I've files called "Poem '08" that are just like…I'm probably not going to do anything with them now, but they're still sitting there.
vanwinckel270	DB: They're still in there, somewhere.
vanwinckel271	DB: OK, and is that the same-Does that same sort of transfer happen with fiction, too?
vanwinckel272	NVW: Yeah, I mean I've got a file in there just called "Stories In Process." I don't know if they're going to be a book.
vanwinckel273	DB: You're sort of figuring them out.
vanwinckel274	NVW: Yeah'
vanwinckel275	DB: So, we'll get back to the computer stuff a little bit more. Let me just sort of talk a little bit-move from revision and talk a little bit more about kind of organizational (and we're already kind of taking about it-these things all sort of mesh in but…).	[00:45:05]
vanwinckel276	DB: So, I mean… OK, with the computer then, you know, you move from your notebook and then you type it up. That sort of moment of revision for you, too?
vanwinckel277	NVW: Uh-hmm
vanwinckel278	DB: And then you have several other different moments of revision when it's on the computer, but some of those happen on paper because you print them out?
vanwinckel279	NVW: Right
vanwinckel280	DB: And then that arrangement happens physically usually first?
vanwinckel281	NVW: I'll look at it on… I'll come back to it over a period of a couple of weeks on the computer then (once it's on the computer file) and look at it, probably tinker with it a little bit more before, and then I'll start sending it out probably.
vanwinckel282	DB: OK
vanwinckel283	NVW: So, fairly soon after I type it up-maybe a month, 2 months. There comes a point where I feel like I'm making it worse. My tinkering's starting to make it worse. That's the only thing that stops me.
vanwinckel284	NVW: And then I start sending it out, and if the-
vanwinckel285	DB: Are we talking about the entire book right now, or are we--?
vanwinckel286	NVW: No, just individual poems
vanwinckel287	DB: Just the individual… OK, yeah
vanwinckel288	NVW: --and if it comes back rejected, often I'll tinker with it a little bit more and send it back out again in a week.
vanwinckel289	DB: OK, so you use the sort of publication and submission process as a sort of revision prompt?
vanwinckel290	NVW: I do, I do.
vanwinckel291	DB: OK, that's interesting.
vanwinckel292	DB: And then, so they come together in one file as your book thing and then you send that out to publishers. Is that a similar sort of thing- if it's rejected then you revise again, or is it once it's in that file, once you've got it there, you just sort of want to give it a space?
vanwinckel293	NVW: I'll probably revise it a little bit more if it comes back rejected, but usually once it gets in book form, it seems sort of subtle to me and often (this may also be the case)… the reason for that being that I've probably moved on to another book and all.
vanwinckel294	DB: OK, another notebook that will then become a book, or…?
vanwinckel295	NVW: Yeah, yeah… No, an actual-I'm actually compiling another book at that point when I start sending one out.
vanwinckel296	DB: So, how many books do you usually have going, or how many projects at one time do you usually have going?
vanwinckel297	NVW: Well, I almost always have a book of poems in process that I'm working on like I said right now I'm working on trying to shape up this book of prose poems, and then I almost always have a book of fiction that's sort of in process-right now, I'm working on a e-book novel, novella thing. And then I'm doing the Photoems now. So…
vanwinckel298	NVW: In terms of like publishing individual pieces now, I'm really doing those a lot. '
vanwinckel299	DB: OK, and then so, in terms of just saving and archiving your work (we talked a little bit about this), you keep your notebooks basically in boxes on the shelves, and then your files are in a folder and they stay in the same folder, and then you put them to an external drive at some point.	[00:48:37]
vanwinckel300	DB: Is there any other archival or back-up procedures that you go through for your work, or is that pretty much it?
vanwinckel301	NVW: I guess that's pretty much it. I mean, my publishers I think have copies, you know. They have pdfs of everything.
vanwinckel302	DB: Right, right
vanwinckel303	NVW: So…
vanwinckel304	DB: You rely on them?
vanwinckel305	NVW: I rely on them-that those are not going to go away.
vanwinckel306	DB: Sure
vanwinckel307	NVW: I don't think they will, will they? They won't go away, will they?
vanwinckel308	DB: Yeah, that's…
vanwinckel309	NVW: Because that's what they send me to proof now.
vanwinckel310	DB: PDFs?
vanwinckel311	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel312	DB: OK, and they used to send you galleys or printed copies?
vanwinckel313	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel314	DB: OK, do you do much revision at that stage, or is that much more type of--?
vanwinckel315	NVW: No, they don't want you to.
vanwinckel316	DB: OK, so then I guess one question more and then I want to talk about kind of computers specifically but… Do you see kind of in this talking that is there… Was there sort of … Can you kind of delineate stages of your own writing over the course of your, you know, the years you've been writing sort of professionally? Do you see distinct stages, or do you think it's just been kind of a gradual…?	[00:49:50]
vanwinckel317	NVW: You mean that's where things have just changed dramatically?
vanwinckel318	DB: Or like, you know, it could've changed like a couple of years, but I mean, would you say there are stages, or would you see it kind of similar? And if there were anything that kind of prompted some of these changes, what were those (I guess is what I'm kind of going with this)?
vanwinckel319	NVW: Well, I think it's mostly been gradual. I've grown more comfortable doing some revision work on the computer and especially with the fiction, and maybe because fiction still feels like a newer form to me. One shift that has felt a little bit more dramatic with composing is that I have found myself, when I'm working on short stories, actually doing some new composing work right here while I'm sitting. Like I'll be working on a story thinking… I'm typing in from my notebook…
vanwinckel320	NVW: Actually I remember working on this one story and I had written something-a note to myself in my notebook that said, 'Flush out her dream right here,' and I had forgotten to do that. So, I remember sitting here doing it while I was typing in the story in to my Word file, and I though what I wrote was OK. It sort of freed me up then to do that more frequently-to let myself do some of the initial composing although I still kind of like have a little cue what it's going to be. Like there's a little whole that I forgot to do, and I have a note to myself in the notebook to do that.
vanwinckel321	DB: Good, and does that… I guess, how… What's the difference in feel between, I guess-dare I describe it as-2-handed writing versus 1-handed writing?	[00:52:07]
vanwinckel322	NVW: Yeah, one of the things I like about doing it on the computer is that I can close my eyes which is really odd but I like it. So, it seems to lend itself to… not to dialogue or action, but to real kind of interior moments where I'm in a character's mind and I want to replicate her thinking process. Like I said, the first time I ever tried it was where I kind of tried to render a dream that the character had had. So, I closed my eyes (and of course, we can type with our eyes closed but I can't write with my eyes closed).
vanwinckel323	DB: OK, it'll be really illegible.
vanwinckel324	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel325	DB: Huh, that's fascinating.
vanwinckel326	DB: OK, so then in terms of computers, generally, when did they enter in to your writing process?	[00:53:10]
vanwinckel327	NVW: Well, I remember when I moved to Lake Forest College… (I knew you were going to ask me this. I was trying to think about this the other day) We got these… I wish I could remember… KayPros
vanwinckel328	DB: KayPros? OK?
vanwinckel329	NVW: Have you heard of those?
vanwinckel330	DB: No
vanwinckel331	NVW: Oh my God. They were these huge, gray boxes. They were given to us - this must have been 1980-right around there, 1980 - At Lake Forest College, all the faculty got these KayPro computer things, and really all they did was word processing but I liked them. I remember a lot of the faculty were complaining but I like them because I was moving from this electric typewriter, or something, and this machine was so much easier to do corrections and everything. So, I took to the computer right away. I really liked it.
vanwinckel332	DB: In 1980?
vanwinckel333	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel334	DB: Wow, OK, that's very early I think.
vanwinckel335	NVW: Well, I can remember the exact year.
vanwinckel336	DB: But somewhere… I mean, you started teaching in Lake Forest in?
vanwinckel337	NVW: In '79
vanwinckel338	DB: So, it's….
vanwinckel339	NVW: It was right around there-when we first moved there.
vanwinckel340	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel341	NVW: And that's all they did. They didn't do… There was no internet, or…
vanwinckel342	DB: Right, right, right.
vanwinckel343	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel344	DB: So, you were just word processing and… Did this… Well, the advent of this computer and then maybe like the kind of more… the prevalence of computers kind of like change your writing practices pretty drastically eventually, or…?
vanwinckel345	NVW: Well, you know, the academic world- I don't know if I hadn't been in the Academy, if I would have the same relationship with technology as I do because everywhere I went to teach, I was presented with a new computer when I walked in the door. And it's nice because, you know, Apple made its money by habituating, habitualizing people (What's the word I'm trying to say?)-
vanwinckel346	DB: No, I think…
vanwinckel347	NVW: --to their technology. That's how they became so great, you know-get all these freshmen hooked on Apples when they're in college because they're in the labs and then the next thing you know, you've got generations out there…
vanwinckel348	DB: Right
vanwinckel349	NVW: So, anyway, I'm a total Mac person. I love them. They seem really intuitive to me to use them-but I've grown up with them. I mean-
vanwinckel350	DB: So then… I guess, what about the software that you use? Did you start with the sort of basic word processing, then did you move to an Apple word processing software, or was it like Word Perfect or…? Do you remember? I mean… I can't even name them.
vanwinckel351	NVW: Oh, gosh. I'm not going to be able to remember all the different program names, but… Yeah…
vanwinckel352	DB: And now are you using Microsoft Word?
vanwinckel353	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel354	DB: OK, but you're also using Pages?
vanwinckel355	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel356	DB: So, you're moving between software. Has that been a newer thing since the iPad, or…?
vanwinckel357	NVW: Yeah, I may get a new iPad pretty soon, and I don't know if I want to buy another Microsoft Word.
vanwinckel358	DB: Yeah, Pages seems to…
vanwinckel359	NVW: And it's fine.
vanwinckel360	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel361	NVW: It moves in to Word just fine.
vanwinckel362	DB: Right
vanwinckel363	NVW: But I learned Photoshop when I was the magazine editor. I edited Willow Springs for about 6 years, and so that was in 1990. I took over the editorship of that magazine when I came out to Eastern. They were doing the magazine with… Oh, my gosh. There was no computer technology. The woman who had done it before me was like-she was into the light board thing, which I had learned in college, in journalism class. You know, with the sticky, peel-y things?
vanwinckel364	NVW: Do you actually know this stuff?
vanwinckel365	DB: I think I saw this in high school in my journalism class. So, yeah.
vanwinckel366	NVW: And I could not believe they had no computer program or anything. So, a guy in the journalism department gave me a copy page maker to put on the computer, and I instantly fell in love with it. I just, 'Oh, I love this."
vanwinckel367	NVW: I love doing the art for the magazine. I did the covers. You know, I mean I found the art and made the covers myself because there was nobody else to do it.
vanwinckel368	DB: Right
vanwinckel369	NVW: And so, I learned PageMaker at the very beginning when it was just out, and as you probably know, that became Photoshop.
vanwinckel370	DB: Right
vanwinckel371	NVW: So, I just kind of stayed with it all these years, and now-
vanwinckel372	DB: So, essentially, you've been using Photoshop for 20 years. Wow, that's awesome.
vanwinckel373	NVW: I buy every other Photoshop. That's been my MO. I don't try to keep up with every single new one. So, I'm on 5 now, but I will probably get 7 when it comes out.'
vanwinckel374	DB: I'm a little worried that they're not going to do that anymore. They seem to be moving to that like subscription basis.
vanwinckel375	NVW: Really?
vanwinckel376	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel377	NVW: How do you mean?
vanwinckel378	DB: You know, we buy it a lot for the digital computers, and I'm starting to hear that they're… You know, they're offering it now so you can basically pay monthly fee and get Photoshop, or get InDesign, or get the Design Suite.
vanwinckel379	DB: So, I'm not sure how often-if they're going to be selling those like Student/Teacher kind of like Editions anymore.
vanwinckel380	NVW: Oh
vanwinckel381	DB: Or if they're going to be charging a subscription fee which in my mind is going to be way more expensive especially because we have so many copies. It might be cheaper, overall, for an individual but…
vanwinckel382	NVW: Interesting
vanwinckel383	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel384	DB: So, I'm not sure. I'm not actually positive about that but I sort of have heard on the wind that that might become around.
vanwinckel385	NVW: Wow, that would be…
vanwinckel386	DB: I don't know-
vanwinckel387	NVW: Hey, it's a tax write-off. So…
vanwinckel388	DB: Yeah, there you go.
vanwinckel389	...	[00:59:43]
vanwinckel390	DB: So, you were pretty familiar with computers from pretty much most of your professional career, As they became more prevalent at large, does that affect… I mean, I guess, it affected probably your correspondence with your editors and what-not with things like that.
vanwinckel391	NVW: Exactly
vanwinckel392	DB: Did that affect anything in the way that you write? Did it start to feel different, you writing feel different?
vanwinckel393	NVW: It felt more constant, I guess. Like my students at Vermont College, they want to send me their work everything online now. I feel like I cannot get away from sitting here, you know, 10 hours, 12 hours a day.
vanwinckel394	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel395	NVW: That part, I don't like as much. I like reading, you know, in a comfy chair and I feel like we're moving away from that now, that that's becoming less. You know, and I'm writing e-books myself now, so I'm a culprit, too.
vanwinckel396	DB: Right, right
vanwinckel397	NVW: But I can read my iPad in a comfy chair.
vanwinckel398	DB: Yes, yes, you can.
vanwinckel399	NVW: I still like reading in bed but once I discovered that I can read my iPad in bed, I was happy. '
vanwinckel400	DB: I'm sort of interested to- I guess in sort of typographical, or graphical things. And I mean, you are familiar with PageMaker. Did any of that like ability of the computer adjust or…? I mean like I think in Quake with those breaks that were kind of like little lines-like little jagged lines (I don't know where those came from)-if that was a computer thing, or…? Do you know what I'm talking about?	[01:01:16]
vanwinckel401	NVW: The section breaks?
vanwinckel402	DB: Like the breaks within the stories, that would be like… Yeah, like section breaks that had kind of…?
vanwinckel403	NVW: I think that might have been the designer, the book designer.
vanwinckel404	DB: Oh, that was the book designer.
vanwinckel405	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel406	DB: OK, but did any of that influence your writing? I mean, did you start to… I mean, you obviously work with fonts and design aspects and layout. Did that influence anything with your poems? I mean, I know they also… You know, a lot of them have… At least the earlier ones some of them would move kind of tab by tab, and then I mean there's other different sort of strategies in the earlier poems, too. But they're… I don't know. I guess…
vanwinckel407	NVW: I'm trying to think about what you're asking me because I'm just not remembering if there's any particular way that that changed in my writing itself.
vanwinckel408	DB: Yeah, I mean I don't think it was a… I don't know if I can say that it was, but I guess
vanwinckel409	DB: When you're writing in your notebook (Maybe that's the way to get)-when you're writing in your notebook, are you writing with some sort of indentation, Or other things like that? Are you pretty much writing down the left margin? Does that sort of layout thing transfer in to the computer, or…?
vanwinckel410	NVW: Right, right. You know, what little experimenting I've done along those lines with poems, I've done on the computer screen. '
vanwinckel411	...	[01:03:00]
vanwinckel412	NVW: I mean, that's I think my… I know we're going to talk about this later. What I'm doing now, I'm doing this altered book pages.
vanwinckel413	DB: Right
vanwinckel414	NVW: I don't know if I showed any of those because those are locked files. But I'm doing these altered book pages, and that's where all of everything I know about Photoshop And my poetry is finally coming together in to something that feels more, I don't know, my own.
vanwinckel415	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel416	NVW: Different
vanwinckel417	DB: Yeah, so… And we can talk about that. I mean, what… So, it that different from the Photoems?
vanwinckel418	NVW: Yes
vanwinckel419	DB: And it's… What sort of formatting do you use …?
vanwinckel420	NVW: I'll show you
vanwinckel421	DB: Yeah, I'd love to see
vanwinckel422	NVW: So, I put these online. I've been… This is mainly what I've been publishing lately. I've found this old encyclopedia up here from the '30s and I've been scanning the pages-especially pages that have a lot of graphic material in them. (Let me just show…)
vanwinckel423	NVW: I put them on this website but in a locked gallery because this is how I share them in with editors. So, let's see. I'll try to find the encyclopedia once I… Let's look at this right here.
vanwinckel424	DB: So, ZenFolio. Is it like a web service kind of?
vanwinckel425	NVW: Yeah, this is really for a photographer's website but I just like it because it has really clean look, and their slideshow mode is really nice.
vanwinckel426	DB: Yes
vanwinckel427	NVW: So, this is the book I'm doing with my husband right now, and these are his illustrations.
vanwinckel428	NVW: (So, I can actually put this in a slideshow. You can see the…)
vanwinckel429	NVW: So, this is my fiction project that I'm-
vanwinckel430	DB: This is the novella?
vanwinckel431	NVW: This is, yeah. This, I will only… I haven't shared this with any editors yet because I'm only just putting this online. (That's a section divider page)
vanwinckel432	DB: (I can see that now)
vanwinckel433	NVW: This is called Pull for Stop, and then the story goes like this. So, these are Rick's pieces and then I have this little story that goes with these characters in the book here. Each page, I think of it as a little like flash fiction. So, I kind of think of them as linked flash fictions.
vanwinckel434	DB: And they're relating in some way to the image?
vanwinckel435	NVW: Oh, yeah
vanwinckel436	DB: OK
vanwinckel437	NVW: So, that's that book. And I was telling you about the encyclopedia, and that's Book of No Ledge.
vanwinckel438	DB: OK
vanwinckel439	NVW: So, this is how I send them out now to editors. I'll probably send like 2 or 3 of these pieces in, you know, the online submission or whatever. And then I send them a link to this.
vanwinckel440	DB: To the whole…?
vanwinckel441	NVW: To this gallery, and the password that they need to access it because it's a locked gallery. That way I can kind of track on how many people are looking (editors are looking) at my stuff at the same time. And then when somebody takes a piece, I put these little asterisks. (This is my screwed-up thing) So, they kind of realize all those are out of commission then.
vanwinckel442	DB: Sure
vanwinckel443	NVW: So, that's what… So, now I'm kind of actually putting a poem. (I hate all the sales stuff in here, but) Then I'm kind of replacing the text that was here in the encyclopedia with a poem.
vanwinckel444	DB: And so, you'll do that in Photoshop. Like you'll erase the text and you'll… Are you trying to match the font in some way it looks like? Or…?
vanwinckel445	NVW: Yeah, yeah, I am.
vanwinckel446	DB: And those are kind of images from the text originally?
vanwinckel447	NVW: Yes, actually they're from like 3 different pages in the text, and then I colorize them, too.
vanwinckel448	DB: Those are cool. That's like a really neat project.
vanwinckel449	NVW: It's really been fun. I like doing that. You can see I've kind of done a little bit of erasure stuff right here-
vanwinckel450	DB: Yeah, yeah
vanwinckel451	NVW: And then this part is my poem over here. So, I like…
vanwinckel452	NVW: (I should put these in slideshow so they'll come out larger, see them better)
vanwinckel453	NVW: But I kind of like having a mix of what was the encyclopedia language with Nance talk, kind of. I like going back and forth, so that's… This has been where I've really started to use the technology much more than I was before. So, I have all these little… This is the straight encyclopedia-Nance stuff, and I hope they kind of talk back and forth to each other-the language.
vanwinckel454	DB: Yeah, I know. I see what you're saying.
vanwinckel455	NVW: My language here and their language
vanwinckel456	DB: Well, it sort of like-it contextualizes it and sort of de-contextualizes it. Yeah…
vanwinckel457	NVW: Yeah, this is my little conversation with Proust. I've been reading Proust this year. Me and Proust are on a time-out right now.
vanwinckel458	NVW: Anyway, so that's what they look like. I like the pages from the encyclopedia that have all this graphic material so I can kind of take what was , you know… What do I have? I put all these kind of romance words around. In this one: timber wolf love nips, must axle me
vanwinckel459	NVW: But a person would have to sort of go in there and look a little bit. That's the thing.
vanwinckel460	DB: Yeah, I mean it's like you need it. It pays to pay attention, right?
vanwinckel461	NVW: So, that's where things have sort of evolved, computer-wise, for me. '
vanwinckel462	DB: And how's that… I mean, what's the… Does it feel different, or does it seem like it's the same creative process for you? I mean, it's visual and textual, so, there's that. But in terms of using the computer to make, is that a change?	[01:09:50]
vanwinckel463	NVW: Well, so the way I've been, I have some really interesting, different ways that I've been doing these that has never been even remotely like working on the poems or the stories. So, I'll print out first the original scans in black and white, and that's what I carry around in my little notebook. I'm still fixated to the notebook there.
vanwinckel464	DB: Right
vanwinckel465	NVW: So, I'm carrying those around in the notebook, and then I just actually start scribbling on the pages-scribbling stuff out. One of the things that I'm kind of doing with this book project-with the encyclopedia-is: this is my version of a collected poems of Nance Van Winckel.
vanwinckel466	NVW: So, I'm kind of mining some of my early poems because I-
vanwinckel467	DB: OH, that's really fascinating.
vanwinckel468	NVW: --The idea of doing a collected or selected, or something, is kind of boring to me actually. But this made it more interesting to do because I'll just pull out, 'Oh, I always like this stanza.' So…
vanwinckel469	DB: Yeah, yeah
vanwinckel470	NVW: I like this stanza." and then I just "Forget the rest of that poem," you know.
vanwinckel471	DB: Right
vanwinckel472	NVW: But these 5 lines I like. So, I'll sprinkle them in there and it's been fun to kind of find the visual material that I think they fit with.
vanwinckel473	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel474	NVW: So, anyway-
vanwinckel475	DB: And with the, you know, wealth of human knowledge form 1930 and the wealth of poems-
vanwinckel476	NVW: Exactly
vanwinckel477	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel478	NVW: And, you know, I feel like I'm kind of talking… I had… I sense one of the things that's going on in this project is that I'm talking back to history in a way and saying, 'No, that's not right,' and I like that. I like that versus-
vanwinckel479	DB: And I guess in some way the software allows you more purchase on making those deletions and adjustments-
vanwinckel480	NVW: Exactly
vanwinckel481	DB: --than it would have in like just crossing out, or a light board for instance.
vanwinckel482	NVW: Yeah, and the erasure thing that a lot of people are doing, that seems like… You know, I'm good friends with Mary Ruefle-doing that amazing erasure stuff. So I feel like "unless I could one-up Mary Ruefle …" I'm not doing that. I'm not going there.
vanwinckel483	DB: I know
vanwinckel484	NVW: There are people who are doing that so much better.
vanwinckel485	DB: Yeah, I've always been a fan of that Radi Os, the Paradise Lost deletion by Ronald Johnson which I didn't like… And I like… Who did one? Like Jonathan Safran Foer did it, and I was like, 'Oh, no.'
vanwinckel486	NVW: He did it?
vanwinckel487	DB: Yeah, he did some…
vanwinckel488	NVW: Really?
vanwinckel489	DB: I don't know. He bugs me anyway.
vanwinckel490	NVW: Yeah, a lot… Maybe too many people jumped on the erasure band wagon
vanwinckel491	DB: It's fun, but I mean, it's hard really to do it. I mean, in the way that Mary Ruefle does it. It's really, really hard. I mean like… Yeah
vanwinckel492	NVW: Here's what Mary Ruefle says, 'The way I do it is, I look at the page and then pretty soon, if I just stare at it for a while, a few words float up.'
vanwinckel493	NVW: Good, OK
vanwinckel494	DB: That's hilarious
vanwinckel495	DB: It's good to be-to have that happen would be fantastic.
vanwinckel496	NVW: It really would--a few words float up
vanwinckel497	DB: (Let me think here)
vanwinckel498	DB: I feel like we've answered a lot of these questions in the course of it. Yeah…
vanwinckel499	DB: Oh, can you find your files? Like if you're looking for a certain poem on your computer, do you have difficulty locating them, or is your organization is such that you pretty much know where things are?	[01:13:50]
vanwinckel500	NVW: I have lost things, yeah. Almost every week, I have little battle because I can't remember what I called something, or…
vanwinckel501	DB: Yeah, do you worry at all about the security or sort of fixity of these digital files?
vanwinckel502	NVW: No
vanwinckel503	DB: No. That's good
vanwinckel504	NVW: You mean somebody else accessing them, or something? That kind of security?
vanwinckel505	DB: Or, I mean the kind of fidelity of them, I guess. I mean, you do say that you have floppy disks and old WordPerfect that you can't access. Is that a concern to you, or you just think that would kind of take care of itself?
vanwinckel506	NVW: It's not a concern to me-maybe it should be.
vanwinckel507	DB: No, I actually don't think you should be, but… And I'm the one who should know that. So…
vanwinckel508	NVW: OK, good
vanwinckel509	DB: But I mean, there's definitely things that we can do. But I mean, it's one of those things that I think…
vanwinckel510	DB: Well, I guess the other question is, have the changes in computers… I mean like, you know, probably in the late '90s, early '90s, computers crashed much more often and you were more likely to lose work. Did that influence the way that you work on computers, or was that…? Or have you pretty much kept the same strategies?
vanwinckel511	NVW: I have pretty much kept the same strategies. You know, I've never had a really bad thing happen where I've lost a harddrive or anything like that.
vanwinckel512	DB: You're so lucky
vanwinckel513	NVW: I know, I know. And it's because of all the Macs.
vanwinckel514	DB: That's hilarious. They got you-they got you there.
vanwinckel515	NVW: They do. I just love all their products. I do. '
vanwinckel516	DB: So, a few questions about correspondence and teaching (although I think we've covered some of that), and then we'll talk about Photoons. Then that would be it.	[01:15:46]
vanwinckel517	DB: So, have you ever corresponded very much in like physical letters? Is that ever been a portion…? Or are they… I mean, related to your writing. I don't need to know like personal correspondence (not so much), but I mean like writing-wise, career-wise, is that ever a concern?
vanwinckel518	NVW: Oh, physical letters, I've… Well, like I was telling you with that first book of poems, I've kept all the letters that he wrote to me about revision. I don't know, they just… They're very dear to me that somebody took that kind of time with me.
vanwinckel519	NVW: And then I have a good friend who's a poet. I think I mentioned her to you.
vanwinckel520	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel521	NVW: Jennifer Boyden. And she really loves the physical letters, and I've kept all her letters that she's written me over the years.
vanwinckel522	DB: Great.
vanwinckel523	NVW: Because they're just so beautiful
vanwinckel524	DB: Awesome
vanwinckel525	NVW: And it just always seems like just the idea that somebody is writing this JUST to me, you know, this three page letter with her thoughts and ruminations about things and they're just so beautifully written; that she would take the time to do that, you know, it seems like a treasure thing because it's a passing, but do I do it … ?
vanwinckel526	DB: Do you have any similar feelings for any emails? Do you have emails that you would feel dear about?
vanwinckel527	NVW: I do keep some emails I have, you know, files with emails that I keep from certain people.
vanwinckel528	DB: And then, a sort of corollary to that, do you feel like a, and this is an odd question, but do you have any sort of feelings towards your digital files about like your poems? Are they dear to you maybe in the same way a notebook would be dear to you or…?
vanwinckel529	NVW: No, the notebook is dear-er
vanwinckel530	DB: OK, yeah.
vanwinckel531	NVW: I don't know why, that's weird.
vanwinckel532	DB: You touch it. A big part of it, I think. I mean, I don't know. It's one of those things. I don't know if that will change, like if someone never had like the physical in the future. If they'll have this special folder on their desktop… That just seems odd to me. '
vanwinckel533	NVW: You know, I try to be careful that I've always got a hard copy somewhere of the material that I'm working on. Like this book that I'm doing with my husband.	[01:18:15]
vanwinckel534	DB: OK, so that's some of the images I guess.
vanwinckel535	NVW: And there they all are.
vanwinckel536	DB: Oh wow, those are nicely printed.
vanwinckel537	NVW: To finish that thought about just being careful: Because if things go awry here, I really don't want to lose the work completely.
vanwinckel538	DB: Right
vanwinckel539	NVW: So I try to make sure that I have a hard copy. It might not always be the most recent copy--
vanwinckel540	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel541	NVW: --But there's a copy.
vanwinckel542	DB: Right
vanwinckel543	NVW: So, with this book, I did all of the arranging of it. I stuck them on that wall in the hallway.
vanwinckel544	DB: OK
vanwinckel545	NVW: All the pages were on that wall and I had little sticky things on the back and I was moving them around to make the sections of the book, but it was up there for like three months.
vanwinckel546	DB: Yeah, three months? So, would you come home and see them and make a few changes or would it be like a dedicated time you'd go to it?
vanwinckel547	NVW: Well, I was at that stage where the book where I had all these pages, but I wasn't exactly sure how I was going to arrange the chronology, again, of the story. So, I started experimenting with different orders of things, by trying the sections on the wall that way. Yeah, moving them around. So before, each page had its own file in there, and now, they have sections too. I think there are five sections in the book.
vanwinckel548	DB: OK, and those came from the wall?
vanwinckel549	NVW: Yes!
vanwinckel550	DB: OK
vanwinckel551	NVW: But I could not figure out a way to look at that many pages on the screen at one time. I mean actually see the print. So I felt like the technology wasn't allowing me to see the big picture the way I needed to.
vanwinckel552	DB: Need a big touch screen.
vanwinckel553	NVW: Yes!
vanwinckel554	DB: I'm sure they're coming, or I'm sure they're here, you just haven't seen them yet.
vanwinckel555	NVW: That's it exactly!
vanwinckel556	DB: You need a big wall that's a computer.
vanwinckel557	NVW: Yes! And if Mac makes it, I'm buying it.
vanwinckel558	DB: There you go.
vanwinckel559	NVW: It's going to be a million dollars.
vanwinckel560	DB: Yeah, that would definitely be expensive. '
vanwinckel561	DB: We did talk a little about your teaching and that you do correspond by email with your students mostly. Is that now?	[01:21:10]
vanwinckel562	NVW: If they insist on sending me their work as attachments and everything, I'll read it that way. I don't mind doing it with the poets, but with the fiction people, I would much, much rather they send me their work in the mail. And usually they're OK with it.
vanwinckel563	DB: So you can kind of take it and not have to be connected …
vanwinckel564	NVW: Exactly
vanwinckel565	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel566	NVW: I just do not like writing my comments with the blackboard program or any of those. The college has that available to us and I have done track changes in Word. I know how to use that OK. I just like to scribble in the margins.
vanwinckel567	DB: So in that aspect of your work and your life, you would just ultimately prefer physical correspondence in total?
vanwinckel568	NVW: Yeah'
vanwinckel569	DB: OK, yeah. I guess the other thing with like, writing and distraction, I guess, is like are you connected to the internet when you're writing? Do you ever have to like disconnect, turn off your Wi-Fi or something? Is that a problem or concern for you? Or do you use it, like are you looking things up while you're writing at all?	[01:22:20]
vanwinckel570	NVW: Oh well that's a good question. I don't like to be disconnected from the net anymore.
vanwinckel571	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel572	NVW: It's terrible. I like to check in with my peeps all the time now. And yeah, I use the dictionary on here all the time because it's just so much faster.
vanwinckel573	DB: Yeah, so it's a tool, and whatever writing space you're in, be it notebook or not, you're still using your computer as a tool to assist you.
vanwinckel574	NVW: Yeah, and I mean I've always got something going on that's like you know, right now, I'm talking to agents and if they email me, if I see an email come in while I'm actually working on something, I got to go see if that is from my agent.
vanwinckel575	DB: Right, right. And that distraction point of it is not a real concern for you? I mean, you are producing quite a bit.
vanwinckel576	NVW: It was more when I was younger, but I guess maybe I'm learning how to disconnect from it and go back to my work pretty fast then.
vanwinckel577	DB: Has there been something you've found to help… I mean like if you're distinguishing between your younger working and now…?
vanwinckel578	NVW: I guess maybe it's like a lot of younger people, I'm just more used to being attached to it. I'll be doing something on my iPad, communicating with somebody or talking on Facebook or whatever, while Rick and I are watching a movie at night. So there's much more multitasking.
vanwinckel579	DB: You've learned a sort of way of compartmentalizing it that seems pretty seamless--
vanwinckel580	NVW: Yeah
vanwinckel581	DB: And the last question about teaching: When you've had now, you're probably getting students who've grown up only with a computer, right?
vanwinckel582	NVW: Yes
vanwinckel583	DB: Has that changed your relationship to the way? Has that sort of changed your idea about what it does, its effects, anything like that?
vanwinckel584	NVW: Well, it's changed to the sense that when students talk to me about their own composing process, and of course they do everything on the computer, they don't ever, a lot of them, write anything at all in longhand.
vanwinckel585	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel586	NVW: I don't even know if they can. And so I'm OK with that. I feel like I sort of made my peace that people are perfectly able to write, to find a good composition process that works for them that doesn't have to do with paper and pens at all. So, I'm accepting of that. You know, I don't try to like, shove my process off or say to someone, "Have you ever thought you might like to write it on a piece of paper first?"
vanwinckel587	NVW: What, you know, why? that's - -I know, I know that I'm hanging onto something that's -
vanwinckel588	DB: If you would -
vanwinckel589	NVW: -the pen... The pen and paper to me, um, they have some, there's something else between the eye and the hand and the page.
vanwinckel590	NVW: And I still feel that when I'm working, especially on poems, that there's something happening between the eye and the fingers and the page. It's very tactile that I'm hanging on to that, which I like.
vanwinckel591	DB: And so you would say, I mean for those that are only composing on the computer and not ever going to handwriting, or never using handwriting at all, that's what they're missing, that sort of hand-eye coordination.
vanwinckel592	NVW: I don't know. I don't think they necessarily are missing it. I think they've probably learned or are learning to do a step in the composing process. You know, maybe that thing where you're writing with your eyes closed. I mean, that they grow up with that, and so they get the same whatever imaginative connection with the keyboard.
vanwinckel593	DB: Do you find that they're as open to revision as maybe an older student?
vanwinckel594	NVW: Well, they can be made to... They can... That's just part of the learning process.
vanwinckel595	DB: Right, so you don't think it's anything distinct to this generation?
vanwinckel596	NVW: No
vanwinckel597	DB: OK
vanwinckel598	NVW: I think they just have to... Many of them, some of them get it right away, that revising can actually make a work better.
vanwinckel599	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel600	NVW: I've been working with this woman right now who came in saying that she doesn't like to revise because she likes to sit down and write everything out really fast in one big draft.
vanwinckel601	DB: Right
vanwinckel602	NVW: And her stuff is a mess! And so it's my personal mission with her to help her to come to believe that actually revising or working on some other manner, you know, like maybe having writing a scene at a time -
vanwinckel603	DB: Right
vanwinckel604	NVW: -would benefit the work. But she's very young and it's her first. She didn't even have an undergraduate degree in writing so, she's starting at square one.'
vanwinckel605	DB: OK, well, the last kind of group of questions I have are about the Photoems and, um, but I guess you have a number of different... I was thinking of these as being your sort of primary computer assisted project, but you have several going at the same time, so you use, including the collected, uh, your novella, are there other projects as well? OK, and are they, um, are they supplanting your fiction and poetry writing or are they sort of just 'in addition to'?	[01:28:20]
vanwinckel606	NVW: I'm wrestling with this question myself.
vanwinckel607	DB: OK
vanwinckel608	NVW: I think the poetry right now, new poetry, is kind of going into the these altered book pages that I'm doing. I have four, four of those projects going on right now.
vanwinckel609	NVW: And, um, I am working on a book of regular poems (those prose poems).
vanwinckel610	NVW: But all the fiction I'm working on right now are all e-books now. I've just completed a novella, not this one, but a different one that's an e-book that's um in the form of a scrapbook form, photograph album.
vanwinckel611	NVW: And that's the one I'm trying to talk to agents about.
vanwinckel612	DB: OK, OK. And they're going to... And you have only, you don't expect any physical form at all, you just...
vanwinckel613	NVW: This is the question that we are trying to work through. I don't care about seeing it as a print book. Um, but apparently publishers don't want to take a book unless it can also have it as a print book, because they don't make any money on e-books -
vanwinckel614	DB: Yes
vanwinckel615	NVW: - so -
vanwinckel616	DB: You can blame Amazon, right?
vanwinckel617	NVW: Yeah, so an agent doesn't want to take me on as a client unless I am doing the print book. And the e-book is the sort of bonus.
vanwinckel618	NVW: So that's what we're kind of going around and around about and I then think, "Well, maybe I'll just go out there and do it on my own, or try to do it with an e-book publisher who is just doing that." So I'm just trying... I'm just … I am just... This is all new to me, new territory and I'm just trying to navigate it myself right now. I don't know what I'm doing.
vanwinckel619	DB: But in terms of like the process and the composition and everything, it still seems pretty much, you know, computer or non-computer, like it's still like the kind of - Well, I mean the computer's a big part of it, but still writing the notebook and pushing it in, or is it a lot of that still happening - Are the e-books happening on the computer?
vanwinckel620	NVW: No, I'm still writing the text part in the notebook.
vanwinckel621	DB: OK. Um, how does the sort of visual aspect relate back to your writing especially sort of maybe... I mean you use a lot of imagery in your poems and in your fiction, but now you are actually using images -
vanwinckel622	NVW: Yes!
vanwinckel623	DB: - so what's that feel like? I mean are you using them in the same ways you used imagery or is it a totally different...?
vanwinckel624	NVW: Well, I mean, you hit it right on t…he head That's it exactly, I mean everything I loved about poetry, you know, the image thing - now I'm making actual images. And, you know, I'm putting a little bit of text in there, and you know, now I'm starting to wrestle with well that's too much text.
vanwinckel625	NVW: You know, it's... Everything that's happening now has gotten to be less, less, and less text. I'm trying to find the right balance between the visual component on the piece and that sort of means minimal text, I think, so that they don't fight each other.
vanwinckel626	DB: I mean, so what is like... How do you find the right language for that? I mean that seems like a different, almost a different thing than writing poetry.
vanwinckel627	NVW: Yeah, yeah. I mean...
vanwinckel628	DB: It's like placing...
vanwinckel629	NVW: This is what, for me, when I turn 60 and I'm doing this work, it's made it exciting again, like when I was 20.
vanwinckel630	DB: Yeah
vanwinckel631	NVW: Because I am... Language has gotten, it's been refreshed by this new sort of interjection of the actual visual material in the same location with the text.
vanwinckel632	DB: Right
vanwinckel633	NVW: And it's made it like a brand new thing for me and I'm just, I don't know, I feel like I'm, "Oh good. Now I can get through to my 80s OK without being bored."
vanwinckel634	DB: Now, if you didn't... So kind of two part question, if you didn't have that facility with the computer that you have and that you developed from working with PageMaker and/or if you just had not worked with a computer, do you think you would've turned to visual art in a physical format?
vanwinckel635	NVW: No, it would've been too much to learn, I think. I mean, it still feels like a lot to learn. I mean, I take classes every week. I'm taking online classes. I mean, I still can't get how to do text on a path. What's wrong with me?! I can't make my paths good.
vanwinckel636	DB: Yeah, I am no Photoshop expert.
vanwinckel637	NVW: Yeah, well anyways I take these little online classes through Photoshop.
vanwinckel638	DB: Do you take any... I mean, your husband's an artist, do you take any sort of art instruction as well I mean -
vanwinckel639	NVW: Yes. Oh, yes. From him. Yeah, and I've been taking like regular college classes, too.
vanwinckel640	NVW: When I taught at Bucknell for a semester - when they asked me to come out there, I said, "Well, yes, I'll come. But, do you think it'll be alright if I sat in on an art class while I'm there? " I wanted to take some kind of photography class. But, they weren't offering anything so I took a film editing class instead. But, anyway I just, I felt like I just needed to be in that environment with visual artists where they're talking about composition - because that's, I was starting at the path, the beginning place - just composition and design.
vanwinckel641	NVW: And my husband comes in, I invite him to come home early a couple nights and month and I supply him with some wine. He sits here and I show him the pieces that I'm working on, some of these Photoems or whatever.
vanwinckel642	NVW: And I'll say, "Just, if you don't like a piece, just tell me and we'll move on."
vanwinckel643	NVW: So this is what he'll do, he'll go, "Next." But then, when he likes a piece he'll explain to me what he thinks is working and it's all about composition and design. And that's what I needed -
vanwinckel644	DB: And so that's a big part of your education, too.
vanwinckel645	NVW: That's what I needed to learn.
wrigley1	Devin Becker: Let's make this kind of official. Would you please state your name, your date of birth, and the location where we are for the camera?
wrigley2	Robert Wrigley: I am Robert Wrigley. I was born February 27, 1951. We are sitting in my little studio building, which is called "Stanza," one of the two Italian words—the lesser Italian word—for "room," on Moscow Mountain, not far...well, 6 miles north of Moscow, Idaho.
wrigley3	DB: And how long have you been writing in this spot?
wrigley4	RW: I built this building in 2002. So, 11 years in this space.
wrigley5	DB: So, here are the sort of quick and dirty questions. What genres do you work in?
wrigley6	RW: Poetry almost exclusively. Every now and then I'm sort forced to commit prose, like a craft lecture or something, and I've got a bunch of those that some day, people keep telling me, I should make a book out of. But mostly I'm just not interested. I'd rather write poems.
wrigley7	DB: What kind of devices do you own or have access to for your writing?
wrigley8	RW: Meaning electronic devices?
wrigley9	DB: Either or.
wrigley10	RW: Most fundamentally, of course, is the computer. I have one laptop. That's my private computer, which sometimes I compose on. Always I compose prose on the computer. I can't imagine being a prose writer and writing in long hand, but some people do. Beyond that, I have pencils and pens and note books.
wrigley11	DB: Okay. What's your operating system, what type of device do you use?
wrigley12	RW: I have a Mac. What is it, a Macbook Air? And I no longer have an external hard drive. Back when I had a PC I had an external hard drive where I backed up everything from the hard drive of the computer onto an external drive. Now, I put things into the cloud, the iCloud. I back stuff up on Mozy just to keep track. Theoretically, at least, I've never had to go retrieve anything. But, theoretically, it's "safe" out there.
wrigley13	DB: Yeah, that is definitely some of the questions. Do you work on a device at the university at all or is it just the one device? Do you ever move things from one device to the other?
wrigley14	RW: No. I try to keep what I write—the poems themselves—away from university machines, just because the university owns the machine and I really don't want anything that I own on that university machine.
wrigley15	DB: How do you save your pre-writing or your notes?	[00:02:53]
wrigley16	RW: I print off a lot of things. There's a pile of drafts back here that in fact need to be moved to a box, but I haven't brought the new box up from the house. Usually, a box will take two years to fill and then it goes into storage in the basement until somebody offers me enough money for it. And then they can have all the boxes.
wrigley17	DB: All the boxes. Do you save the drafts of your individual works as you go along or do you save it as one poem or do you put them all together or do you save over?
wrigley18	RW: I don't put them all together. It seems to me that it would probably be a good idea to do something like that, and if I were to do something like that, if someone comes along and wants my papers, they would be a lot happier if I had them organized in some way. But basically, the pile—which is not very evenly stacked—is pretty much the way they go into the box. So I will work on a poem, print off a draft, put a date on it and the number. I'm just pulling the one off the top—this is a little draft of a poem called "Goodbye to the River" which I have no memory of. But this draft was composed on the 15th of October 2013, and it's draft number two. So, I do have a sort of—
wrigley19	DB: So you do have a system.
wrigley20	RW: I do have a system. And I suppose if someone were really interested and would go through the boxes, which ultimately have a year on them—or a period of years on them if it takes me awhile to fill one—someone could go through and actually find the poems under certain title and put them in order, in the order in which they came into being. Although sometimes I change tittles, so I don't know what that does to the—
wrigley21	DB: The poor future researcher that has to—
wrigley22	RW: Well, it will keep said researcher, should he or she ever exist, busy.
wrigley23	DB: Yes.
wrigley24	RW: Well through tenure.
wrigley25	DB: Yeah. So you were just saying you back up your work by using a Mozy folder, which backs up your work to the server and all your poems are in one location. How do you save a work that's been published? Do you put it in a different place?	[00:05:00]
wrigley26	RW: I do. I have this which is sort of the in-process folder—a little "thesis binder," they're called at Harvard. In the back go all the poems that have been published with the name of the magazine on it and in front are the ones that are still in progress.
wrigley27	DB: This is sort of a general question. Have you ever received or sought out information about methods for kind of "best practices" for digital archiving?
wrigley28	RW: I never have, and probably I should. I talked to Daniel Orozco a lot who is so frightened of losing things that he backs everything up on a jump drive. I think maybe two; he uses Mozy, he uses one other backup service as well, prints things. He's anal all about it and I can't really blame him. He's a prose writer, though they lose... you lose a file there, you could lose hundreds of pages.
wrigley29	DB: Right. I think that was one of the interesting things we saw was that there were a lot of—not, maybe, to Orozco's extent, but—people who would do that. But then the issue becomes, for them, a lot of times, what's what and which version is which and the kind of mess of that. I mean, you think your files will be difficult, but his files will be...because there is not a date on them, there is no handwriting, there is no indication this is...it's going to be kind of like, "What?"
wrigley30	RW: You know how when you save something in, say, Microsoft Word? When you save it it gives you a date, but then you resave it, you modify it, you resave it and it's completely new dates, so the old date goes away. I found that I couldn't rely on that at all. I had to put a pencil date or a pen date on the corner of the draft just so I knew which was which and when was what. And I think that's important. I don't know that that's important. Whereas, in the notebook, it starts with a date and every page is dated, so I know exactly. I can go back into the notebooks, which I do with some regularity, just to sift-through and see if I missed anything. If there is some piece that I might resurrect and make use of, I know exactly when I first put it down.
wrigley31	DB: Ok. That was sort of the precursor, although basically the same questions are coming back, but this is going to be kind of more overarching on your practice over time. How long have you been writing professionally, in which I mean something that was sort of either your main focus or something that was supporting you financially?	[00:07:53]
wrigley32	RW: Really, I guess I would say since 1972, which is when I was in fact an undergraduate student. I got discharged from the army in 1971, got drafted, went back to college, and within a matter of a few months was waylaid by poetry. I didn't want to be a poet. I didn't really have a whole lot of use for poetry. I took the class on a kind of lark, thinking how hard can it be? It doesn't have go very far across the page, and from what I could tell, it doesn't have to rhyme anymore. You don't have to have any kind of regular meter. As far as I could tell, most people couldn't figure out what it meant anyway, so I can do that. I can get three credits that way. I walked into the class and I got absolutely waylaid, and that was 1972, which was 41 years ago.
wrigley33	DB: Where was that?
wrigley34	RW: Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville.
wrigley35	DB: Who was your first professor?
wrigley36	RW: My first poetry professor was a man by the name of Clyde Fixmer, who is still alive, pushing 80, was really kind of a failed poet. I'd never want him to hear me say that, of course, but he's published I think two or three books and they've all been self-published. He never really had the belly for the getting out into the—I don't know what else do you call it—the marketplace; the literary world. He couldn't bare rejection. And I figured out early on, and as far as I knew it for a long time, rejection was, like...that's what happened.
wrigley37	Although, the first poem I ever sent out got accepted. The first batch of poems I ever sent out, I got something accepted. I got, like, hooked on that part of it too. But publication, as you know, publication is not the same thing as writing. They may be almost entirely unrelated.
wrigley38	DB: Yes. That kind of gets us started. The next question is sort of, like, could you give a sort of general description of the arc of your career starting with this portion versus the next? Let me go push this one more time.
wrigley39	RW: Does it automatically take pictures? Or—
wrigley40	DB: No. This is recording. I'm going to do it twice. It just stops because it fills up really fast. It's a higher resolution thing, and then this one is definitely... So to get back to the sort of the general, the large arc of your career, and how that's kind of taken you through the scenes.
wrigley41	RW: I'm a product of the creative writing industry. I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to write novels. I wanted to write novels that sold a lot of copies, made me a lot of money. I wanted to live in the South of France. I'm serious about this, Devin—you have to believe me—as serious as a 21-year old could have been. I wanted drive in Aston Martin and live in the South of France and date super models; it seemed like a perfectly appropriate and maybe even attainable career goal. I was an idiot, I didn't know anything.
wrigley42	But then I got waylaid by poetry, and I think that I discovered or realized that whatever sort of disposition I have is suited to poetry and not so much to prose, and certainly not to fiction. I have, in fact, published a couple of short stories, years ago—25 years ago I think was the most recent one—but they never made me happy, not like writing a poem did. Anyway, I got way laid and got real keen on poetry and began haunting the library of my alma mater in the department of the skinny books.
wrigley43	I looked into graduate school and discovered there was this degree called Master of Fine Arts, in which there were 11 programs in the country that offered that degree in 1972, I think, and one in Canada, and applied to a number of programs, wound up going to Montana, fell in love with living in this part of the world and really have never stopped in terms of writing nor of living in this part of the world. So, I got kind of waylaid by geography and poetry simultaneously. The arc of my career aesthetically is a completely other kind of thing.
wrigley44	DB: This is more of just sort of like place, person, kind of general overview of where you were, what happened.
wrigley45	RW: When I went to Montana I got to study with Madeline DeFrees, John Hansen, and probably most famously, Richard Hugo. Dick Hugo and Madeline DeFrees, particularly, were just enormously important to me in terms of the craft of the poetry and I don't think my notion of the line is, for me, separable from what I learned from, say, Madeline DeFrees. Dick was a completely other kind of teacher, but a magnificent teacher. He could make you see what you were doing right and what you were doing wrong with a phrase. And that was a great thing.
wrigley46	DB: So you went from Montana and then where did you go next? It was LCSC? Or—	[00:14:25]
wrigley47	RW: I went back to my alma mater where I was an adjunct for a year and applied for jobs as close to Missoula, Montana as I could find. The first job that I got was down at LCSC in 1977. I was sabbatical replacement for a year, but they loved me and tried immediately make a tenure track position for me, which they offered me and I turned down, because I had an NEA and I didn't want a job. But I wound up working, teaching a couple of classes for that year and then I started tenure track on a job that was really kind of...that I held for 22 years, that was not a great job for a poet because the teaching load was 4-4 for a long time. And then, somehow, I convinced them that I should have a 3-3 load, and then, ultimately, Kim and I split the job and each taught 2-2. And that was fine. That was great. But then the position opened up here, and the only other place I was really interested or would have been interested in going would have been Montana. But I love Moscow and I love Idaho, and I have been there for a long time. So when this job came along, I snapped it up.
wrigley48	DB: In what year was that?
wrigley49	RW: 1999 was my first year at U of I.
wrigley50	DB: How long had the MFA program been here?
wrigley51	RW: I think it was three years old then. I think ‘96 was the first year they admitted students, maybe ‘97. I can't remember now. So it's still a pretty young program, really.
wrigley52	DB: You have been here for...?
wrigley53	RW: For most of it.
wrigley54	DB: Most of it, yeah. So, you've been here since then, basically in the same position, same job, and over this time you've written... Can you kind of talk about... You've written, like, seven books?
wrigley55	RW: Let's see—‘99, the year I was hired, I published Reign of Snakes. The year I was hired here, I published Reign of Snakes. So, since Reign of Snakes, although it was written while I was teaching at LC, I've published Reign of Snakes, Lives of the Animals, Earthly Meditations, Beautiful Country and now Anatomy of Melancholy. Five books since I've been at U of I.
wrigley56	DB: Okay. That's sort of the general overview, and then I'd like to kind of start about your writing process, generally. I've got it kind of broken into three portions; one being kind of the compositional spot, like pre-writing, notes, kind of the development of the work into its first draft. And then the next being sort of revisional, like "How do you revise?," etcetera. We'll talk, and that will be kind of the next thing. And then the third process being the organizational archival. If that doesn't make sense with your writing process, we can talk about it differently. That's just how I've them set up here.	[00:16:58]
wrigley57	RW: We'll see how it goes. It sounds fine to me.
wrigley58	DB: Okay. So when you first started writing, when you were first, maybe, in Montana, and in the first stages of your career, how did go about writing a poem? How did you get the idea? How did you pre-write? Did you draft, etcetera? That's sort of my first question.
wrigley59	RW: I've always—and I don't know where—I have piles of them... These little fellows, these Moleskine. However one pronounces that, I can never tell. I probably have 250 of these piled somewhere. I think they're in a box in the house, and they're just the places where, when I get an idea or an image occurs to me, or a phrase, or I see some phrase, I make a note. I make that first note, so that when I come out here or wherever I go, wherever it was I was happily doing the writing, anywhere along the way, which is sometimes at a kitchen table, you never knew... Back years ago, I didn't have a space to write it.	[00:18:00]
wrigley60	I had this, one of the most recent couple of these, to just consult, just to sort of trip on the switch. Sometimes though, you exhaust those things or nothing in the little notebook interests me, so I just come out, and that's why there is this pile of books here on the futon. They were all books I've pulled down—well, there's a little pile that I brought back from Italy. Not Italy; England. I'll just come out and I'll look at the shelves and pull a book off the shelves, almost at random. Sometimes I have no idea what book it is I'm reaching for, it's just something about the color that will appeal to me and I'll open it up, thumb through it, look for a poem or look for a word, a title, a phrase—anything that just turns on a switch that just gets me started. Mostly it has always seemed to me that the only way I can get started is to just start putting words on paper, so that's what when I turn to this notebook. It seems far less effective to me to sit down at the computer and try to begin composing when I don't have anything in particular on my mind. Whereas in the notebook itself, I can doodle. I can write a phrase. I can just sort of noodle around, you know, the way a musician would noodle around with a musical phrase, to see where it leads me. I've always believed that writing begets writing. The more I noodle around, something eventually is going to interest me. Something eventually is going to find a way to connect with the next thing, the next word, the next phrase, or a kind of move toward an idea. I hate using the word "idea," though, talking about poems, because people always ask things like—and they tend to be people who have never really written before, or who are at the beginning of trying to write—they'll say, "Where do you get your ideas for poems?" I always want to say, "What ideas? Where?" Because they tend not to come from ideas, they tend to come from words or phrases or images or something I've seen outside the window. That's why...who was it? Ed Hirsch came out here. I showed him my space. He sat at the desk and said, "I couldn't write here. All I'd do is look out the window." Well, it's true, I spend a lot of time looking out the window, but that's just my way of inviting what was outside into the poems. Those kinds of things are what occur to me as language. Somehow, the lens of the writing studio, the lens that is my eyes and imagination and language can convert what it is I see into some kind of a phrase that's useful and I can build with.
wrigley61	DB: Okay. You move from the Moleskine notebooks into this notebook. Could you describe what the notebook is?
wrigley62	RW: Yeah. What do they call these? This is the "Gemstone Collection" and this is mostly what I've been using for the last 20 years. I was teaching at the University of Oregon for a year and the graduate students bought me one of these, and I loved it so much that I've been buying these ever since. That's when I really start getting movement toward a poem to happen, and it used to be, as I said, whole poems would happen in those notebooks. Now, it can be a stanza, it can be 20, 30, or 50 lines, if it's a longer thing.
wrigley63	When I'll get impatient with the sort of the slowness of the process writing—I always write in pencil—I'll go to the computer. Or, I'll get stopped. I won't know where to go. I mean, you know what this is like. You're just, "What's the next thing that happens in this poem? I don't know." Somehow converting the hand written text to text on the computer screen—and it was with a typewriter, even before—can allow you to see things about its structure or about its movement that you might not have seen while you were in the midst of it. It's almost like the handwriting became something that swallowed me and I had to escape from the handwriting and put things down on the computer screen, let's say, in order to have some sense of what might come next.
wrigley64	DB: Before you were using the computer, you were using the typewriter in a similar manner?	[00:23:23]
wrigley65	RW: Yeah. I had an IBM Selectric. I guess even before that, I had some other kind of electric typewriter. I would type it up as far as I could go and then wait and see what would happen. Usually what that meant was that I'd take the poem out of the typewriter, as far as it went, and write it back down long hand in the note book but it would look different. It shaped it differently. Because looking at it on the screen gives it the appearance more of a kind of permanence, which is dangerous, I think. It would have been dangerous for me in the beginning, I think, to compose on a word processor or a typewriter because it might have given me this inclination toward a particular kind of structure that in fact would not have been as interesting or as evocative to me.
wrigley66	Now, I'm perfectly comfortable just looking at lines on the computer screen and saying, "Wait a minute, why are these lines the way they are?" And I am a compulsive syllable counter, even if, ultimately, in revisions, I wind up excising syllables or adding syllables. I like, composing say, a decasyllabic just to force me into manipulating syntax, to keep the right margin mattering, and somehow finding that way of moving the poem down the page.
wrigley67	DB: First question is when did you start using a computer to do these things? Secondly, was there anything that changed when you moved from typewriter to a computer? Was there a different feeling or a different sort of—? I mean you've said a little bit about this.
wrigley68	RW: Yeah. I think that in the beginning, and this probably would have been, let's see... I got my first computer in the Fall of 1995. This is the sort of computer that had a—which I still have; it still works—a Compaq, a little tiny "laptop," as we called them then, that had a minimal hard drive. I think I nearly filled it up. But I think I kind of used it, really, as just a sort of glorified typewriter with a little screen. It is black and white screen and there was nothing special as a piece of technology. I used it as a not so special piece of technology, kind of like a typewriter except that you can save it and go back to it, and find it just the way you left it and not have to type it completely in or not have to go from the typing sheet back to the notebook.
wrigley69	There is a kind of step that gets left out. That was the first time I started leaving out the step of writing by hand then going to the computer and then going back to the typewriter, then going back from type-written sheet to long hand. In a way I suppose the best thing I could have, the thing I thought was best about that part of the process, when the computer came along, was that it saved time. I could immediately just look at it on the screen, go back to longhand and then add what I had written in longhand onto whatever I had already saved on the computer.
wrigley70	But it kept me from writing everything back down and for a long time, I wondered about, "What I'm I missing there? What might I have not seen that I would have seen if I had been writing in longhand?" I used to say things like, "The reason I keep writing longhand or printing actually, I print the stuff, is that it allows me to feel the shapes of the letters themselves." It allows you to dispense words incrementally and syllables, not that the typewriter or the computer is any different except that it is. You sort of hear the syllables more when you are writing it out longhand and you certainly feel them more when you are writing longhand.
wrigley71	Eventually, I began to see that and I think Kim was part of what helped me see that. She just said, "That's just silly. Why would that really change anything?" You know, you're right. It doesn't change much of anything. I began to be a whole lot more comfortable then with just moving from—in sort of one fell swoop—from the handwritten text, to the text on the computer, which I would then print out and then do extensive revisions on. Arrows, things crossed out—that sort of thing. Whole sections crossed out.
wrigley72	DB: Okay. I guess we can kind of move into sort of talking about revision generally then. You are talking about how you do revision now in the computer and the differences between you moving back and forth more with the typewriter. I guess, what were your practices when you first started? How did you kind of learn how to revise?	[00:28:31]
wrigley73	RW: That's a really good question. I tell the students, the graduate students, because they hate to revise. I said, "You can't hate to revise, you have to love to revise because that's, like, most of the job." If you hate to revise, it's like hating writing, because that's what writing is. I like to tell them my own experience, which was that when in the beginning, as it were, I didn't realize it but I preferred to have written to writing. I really loved the finished product, or what I perceived as the finished product, which is to say, the "file" draft of the poem. That's the part I loved most.
wrigley74	Somewhere along the line, I began to prefer the process to the product because that's the place where all the excitement happens. That's the place where you surprise yourself. The process of revision is certainly made so much more fluid and swift with the computer than it ever could have been with writing longhand and then moving to the computer. It's so easy to drag and drop, to cut and paste with a computer that it is sort of staggering to try to remember what it was like getting together a book manuscript.
wrigley75	My first book manuscript that Penguin published, that was all typed on a typewriter without page numbers, which are then penciled in. I thought about winding it all in the typewriter, typing-in page numbers, but I thought, "This is insane, it'll drive me nuts." I had handwritten page numbers on it when I put together that book manuscript. And now of course it's just such a breeze that a computer will automatically do all that stuff for you. I don't think that it changes much about the way I compose, but there are some, I think... That is a big bug.
wrigley76	There are some great advantages about seeing it on the screen in the computer. There is a poem in Anatomy of Melancholy that is...let me find it. It's called "Earthquake Light." Let's see. It's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven...eight tercets. So, it's 24 lines. Originally, in the first draft of this poem, was the only draft of this poem that was in six quatrains. Not much was different about it. If you look at it, when it was divided into quatrains, more or less the same structure that it is now, the first quatrain ended with a period. That is to say the period at the end of what is now line one, stanza two. I looked at it on the page, on the computer screen for a long time before I realized that, "Wait a minute, I sort of liked the idea that the first quatrain ends with a period, which sort of establishes this undeniable hardness of the quatrain as a structural unit."
wrigley77	But then I thought to myself, "What happens if I break this into tercets because it the same number of lines. I can break it into a different number of tercets and still have the poem be comprised of the same number of lines." It changed everything about the poem, having that poem broken into tercets instead of quatrains. That was so easy to do and so easy to examine, to test, with a computer. Let me just backspace here, space here, return here—I just did that, looked at that: "Okay. Bingo!" That sort of thing I think is one of the great things that that part of the technology of the computer helps to facilitate. It allows you to see those possibilities. Shit, if I'd have had to completely retype the thing in tercets, would have I done it? Probably. I would have done it, but it would have been a much more arduous thing, and it might have not occurred to me simply because the little voice in my head would have said, "You don't want to type that again." That, I think, is one of the great things about the technology.
wrigley78	DB: I guess what sort of mode is your revision? There is a phrase in one of the books I'm reading: "What is your primary mode of textual change as an English woman?" She was sort of describing sort of T.S. Eliot versus Pound; T.S Eliot being the sort of subtractive and Pound being sort of creative and more and more... or there is also a sort of substitute sort of mode as well. Does one of those fit your mode or is it...?	[00:33:55]
wrigley79	RW: Oh, I'm subtractive. Absolutely. If she weren't so old and weren't taking care of my father 24/7, I would have my mother who always embroidered, embroider me a little sample that I can hang on the wall that says, "Cutting is virtue" because it is, and I think I may be part of the lineage of poets who sometimes can't shut up. I love Dryden, I love Pope but I can only take them for about 100, 200 lines of time and I got to go lie down because they just did not know when to be quiet. They did not know when to shut up and they needn't have to. Who I'm I to talk about them that way? Except for the fact that I look at—even in poems of Pope's—and think, "If this had been cut by about a third, it would just be a lot more friendly." It would just be a lot less boring quite honestly. It may not have been boring. It is not still boring to a lot of people, but I think it's one of the reasons that people like Pope probably aren't read—except by academics—as they once might have been, because there is just so much of it. Maybe being sort of in that lineage or of that sort that people tell me all the time, "You write long poems." No, I don't! The longest poem I've ever written has been like 400 lines—that's puny, but I've cut... The longest poem in Beautiful Country is 220 some odd lines, and it was 800 lines long in early draft. Most of those, I would print off a long draft and then just start cutting. And I cut 600 lines.
wrigley80	DB: Which poem is that?
wrigley81	RW: It's called "American Fear."
wrigley82	DB: Okay. When you are revising is there an intension behind the revision and along with that, are you revising towards... like is it driven by sound? Is it driven by theme? Is it driven by structure of the poem in general or by meaning?
wrigley83	RW: Certainly sound figures into it. Basically, I'll see or hear opportunities to let the poem go someplace else it might not have gone basically because I hear a particular sound that appeals to me or see the possibility of substituting a word in a subsequent line. It can pick up that sound. I call them "sound linkages." A lot of people do, I think Ellen Bryant Voigt was the first person I ever heard use that term. Sound is for me a compositional tool. I have something called the rule of the rhyme. When I make a sound that I particularly like or feel is evocative in a line, I want to make that sound again within the first three or four syllables of the subsequent line just to see where the poem goes, just to see where that sound takes me inside the poem. I forgot the original question, how the hell I got here.
wrigley84	DB: Is there an intention behind the revision or you just sort of follow?
wrigley85	RW: I think in sort of the most fundamental way I'm looking for clarity without clarity, but with a kind of evocative simplicity. I don't want poems to be boilable down to a kind of theme and I'm not interested in poems that can be said to be "about" something. Sure, they are about something, but what they are really about is something much more than that particular something. What I'm looking for is to get at that particular something, not so much the thing as the other thing. Tony Earley, the fiction, nonfiction writer talks about all great writing being about the thing and the other thing. It's the other thing that interests me a whole lot more than the thing. In the drafting process, I'm dealing with the thing. In the revision process, when I get seriously down to revision, I'm dealing with the other thing. How can I make what this poem is after? That "what" is frequently several different "whats". So, how can I make those things all work together?
wrigley86	DB: Has your relationship to that sort of idea changed over your course of writing or has it been somewhat constant in that? Like, once you heard him talk about it, you are like, "Oh right. That's what I've been doing."
wrigley87	RW: Hold on to say okay. Ask the question again?
wrigley88	DB: You are talking about the thing and the other thing. Is that something that once he said that to you, you sort of realized that's what you've been doing all along or is it something that you came to be practicing and before you were doing something else?
wrigley89	RW: I think it was something I've been doing all along without really having that sort of a simple way of explaining it or a simple way of seeing it. But I was always after that. I mean, I was interviewed by a young woman in Scotland who asked me if I could talk about what she said were my two or three dominant themes and I said, "I'm sorry, but I don't know what those are." And we wound up with the long edge talking about my discomfort with the idea of theme, because it's just the way it sort of circumscribing what the poem is after, drawing the line about what the possibilities of the poem might be, a line around that, and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in the poem being as big as it can possibly be, having as many possible readings, if you will, as it can have. Maybe as many possible readings as there are readers.
wrigley90	DB: What role do other people play in the process of your revision? Do they play a role?	[00:40:55]
wrigley91	RW: Not a whole lot. Kim is my principal reader and she knows me so well that she can tell when she needs to be supportive and can tell when she needs to be mean. Sometimes, you just need to have a kick in the pants. But she's also the one who says, "Okay, here's where you need to open it up, right here, right in this spot," and she's almost invariably correct. "Oh yeah, you're right. I need to develop that spot. I need to go somewhere else. I need to bring some other kind of image, some other kind of a reference." The poem, as Dick Hugo would say, is...you need to write off the subject in that spot, he would say. I always call it "Just bring in a Buick," which is my own figure for it but that's what I do. Just find something extraneous—seemingly extraneous—to bring into the poem so I can open it up here.
wrigley92	DB: Okay. So you don't, like, send your poems to other writers or have anything like that?
wrigley93	RW: I have a couple of friends that I will send poems to on occasion. Dorianne Laux has looked at poems for me, and Henry Carlile, who lives over in Portland, a wonder poet. On a couple of occasions, Phil Levine has looked at some things for me. But mostly no. I don't have that kind of network of other writers.
wrigley94	DB: And in these sort of unusual circumstances, what drives you to sort of send a poem outside?
wrigley95	RW: It will be a poem that, for some reason or another, I'm uncertain of. The example that occurs to me is that a long sequence of poems called "Earthly Meditations," which originally appeared as kind of little prefatory sections in each of the four parts, and then a fifth envoy, sort of the organizing poems in the book Reign of Snakes, which is a very sound driven, intensely meditative poem that I wrote. I was on a Guggenheim when I wrote that book and that was the last poem—that big poem that went into the book because something is missing. I knew something was missing, but I didn't know what it was. And right in the middle of the book was this other long sequence, called "Reign of Snakes."
wrigley96	I had this one poem which was actually the first part of "Earthly Meditations." I took it in to show it to Kim and she said, "Okay, the stanza here needs to go, but you might want to consider just writing more of this and see, because I don't feel it's done." So I wrote—it was 500 some odd lines long, this sequence—over the course of, like, two weeks. While I would do it, I would go out and I played Dylan Thomas on the CD player. I'd just listened to him say all this "gorgeous nonsense" as Auden called it. Or I'd read Plath, or I'd read The Book of Nightmares. Mostly, if there was a model for that poem, it was Roethke's "North American" sequence, a very much nature-driven sort of thing, and highly musical.
wrigley97	And then when I finished it, I knew what I wanted to do with it, and use it as sections throughout the book. Actually, that was Kim's idea too. I couldn't write without her. I didn't really trust the poem.
wrigley98	It was not like anything else I've ever written so I sent it to Dorianne, Henry, and Phil, and a couple of other people, just to find out, one of whom, Henry—who was a student of Roethke's—it was too close to Roethke for him. He didn't want me to do it. Everybody else said, "This is the best thing you've ever written. You just got to keep writing more like that." People keep telling me to go back and get that voice again and do more. I keep saying, "I've already done it. I don't want to do that anymore." But I do have those people. I hadn't used any of them. Henry, a couple of times, since, but that's about it. I have this writer in residence, who is extremely helpful.
wrigley99	DB: So you're talking a little bit about how this goes into a book and everything. I guess I'm wondering if you can sort of delineate a difference between how you revise an individual piece and how you revise a collection of works, and maybe talk a little bit about how that has changed over the course of your career?	[00:45:40]
wrigley100	RW: Yeah, you know, it's such an ongoing thing with individual pieces. A lot of times, I'll publish a poem in a magazine and I'll go back in and think, "I want to change this," and I'll change something. I'll fiddle with things a little bit. I don't think there is anything particularly holy about the fact that it appeared in print in one way—I can tinker with it. But then I find, when I start assembling a book—I mean, I still do this the old fashioned way; I don't think there's any other way—get all the poems I think might comprise the poem, and I lay them out on the floor. But then that act of laying them out on the floor and finding, say, "Okay, this batch of 10, 12 poems sort of goes together - You can see there's some connective tissue between them."
wrigley101	Then I've got to go back and start making—I have a system of little arrows and checks and numbers and so forth that show me opportunities to tie those poems together. If I write as in, say, Anatomy of Melancholy—a book that is into four sections—then I have to find a way to connect the sections together so that the assemblage of the sections is part of the assemblage of the whole, of course, but the assemblage of the whole and the sections they're in becomes, also, part of the revision of the individual poems as I find ways to stitch those things together into the larger fabric.
wrigley102	DB: Okay. That has been consistent throughout, you think?
wrigley103	RW: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Certainly from my second book. My first book—which Copper Canyon published in 1979—was my MFA thesis, basically, and when I find copies in bookstores, I buy them. I'm not embarrassed by it, but boy—it's really beginning work. I think in the Selected Poems, I used maybe three poems, and even then, I think I could have left them out and it wouldn't hurt anything, but my editor said, "No, no. You've got to have something." Beginning though with the second book, Moon in a Mason Jar, that's been absolutely the way I've operated. It's gotten complicated with two of the books. My third book, What My Father Believed, and Beautiful Country, are volumes not divided into sections so that in each of them, it seems more all of a piece, somehow, and those required a lot more movement. I don't know how I could have done it without the computer, moving poems in different locations throughout the text and finding ways to maintain a kind of a seamlessness, but not a kind of overwhelming sense of there being an arc, because really, it is a collection of poems. If there is an arc—boy, it's a very pale arc, at least in those two books of mine.	[00:48:00]
wrigley104	DB: You said something about a system of arrows and numbers. I was wondering if you could maybe go into the nitty-gritty of that?
wrigley105	RW: Well, it has to do with page numbers ,overall. I'll have the draft and I'll put page numbers on them. I'll just have an asterisk and 7, which will mean, "Look for the asterisk on page 7," or a check and 118—"Look at 118." And I'll have another check so there are a couple of spots in a couple of poems that correspond that can allow me to make a stitch here that connects those two things. So across two or 50 pages, there's a kind of communication that's going on through the whole of the manuscript.	[00:49:25]
wrigley106	DB: And you just combine them all into one Word document on your computer?
wrigley107	RW: Mm-hmm. And before then, when it had to be typed up, it was really hard. So I had to do a lot of penciling-of-things-in. Somewhere, in those many boxes in the closet, in the basement, are drafts, work sheets—whatever you want to call them—versions of all of the books since Moon in a Mason Jar that sort of show that process, how that came about.	[00:50:10]
wrigley108	DB: Now that you do use a computer, do you find yourself making any changes in the collection once it's into a bigger file?
wrigley109	RW: Absolutely.
wrigley110	DB: Okay.
wrigley111	RW: It never really stops. Well, with Anatomy of Melancholy, I thought I had it exactly the way I wanted it, but the first poem in the published book used to be the last poem in the published book, and the last poem in the published book used to be the first. And they were that way because there's a kind of chronology there, in a way—the last poem in the book happens before the first poem in the book, if you know what I mean. So, chronologically, it seemed better that what is now the last poem happened first.
wrigley112	But I got to working on it and realizing that a lot of it had to do with form, too. The last poem of the book is a sonnet as it stands now, which seemed like a great way into the book, but in fact, it seems to me like a much better way out of the book. So I still make those kinds of changes and I drag my poor copy editor crazy at Penguin because I'm always, "Okay I changed this. You're right. That comma is probably confusing." Or, "I don't have a comma there, but by the way, I've added two more lines," or "I've taken out a line in it." And where does this ever stop, I think.
wrigley113	DB: So we're sort of on to how you organize—you move in from revision. You're always revising, but then you're also sort of moving into organizing the collection. Then, I guess once you're at that point that you've got published collections, you've got published poems, how do you kind of keep track of all of this stuff? Do you do it on the computer? Before the computer, I'm sure it was a little different than it is now. Or maybe that hasn't changed at all?	[00:52:22]
wrigley114	RW: I don't think it has changed at all. I mean, there was a time when I would create a file on the computer that was nothing but poems that had been published in magazines, say. And then I just got away from that and sort of went old fashioned on myself and just started writing it down and keeping them in the file. I don't know why I did that. It just seems like it was a lot easier to get to the hard copy somehow and look at them and read them than it was to call up individual poems out of a whole other file. To that extent, I guess, I discovered that I prefer the old and seemingly laborious manual method with seriously analog notation and keeping track of things. I mean, there's no doubt that for me, it has got to be a combination of the two. Even still, I've got pencils all over the place because that's what I need to write in these things with.	[00:52:57]
wrigley115	DB: Your other folder there that you called a thesis folder?
wrigley116	RW: Mm-hmm.
wrigley117	DB: When did you start using those? How did that come about?
wrigley118	RW: That was in Montana. Madeline DeFrees gave all her students one of those, which is a very sweet thing. I loved it. Rodney Jones actually talks about these things. The Harvard calls them "thesis binders." You can buy them in the bookstore in Harvard, and you can buy them in the bookstore in Montana, but I've had to order these online. They're also called "spring binders."
wrigley119	At Montana when I was in graduate school, if you didn't have a spring binder to keep your poems in, you just weren't shit. I mean, it was just spring binder, man. "I don't have one." "Oh..." So I got sort of interested in that particular thing way back then, and I've got, well, in those boxes, hundreds of them, and I've got a couple of old ones here—that one, held together with duct tape. That's a big one. I think that's one Kim retired from a prose manuscript so that I could do the selected poems, because it was sort of a fatty in comparison.
wrigley120	DB: How does it work? Does it clip in individual pages?
wrigley121	RW: No, it's got metal in here. This is not new. You have to squeeze it, so it's just a piece of metal in the spine.
wrigley122	DB: Oh okay.
wrigley123	RW: Then it's got this little—
wrigley124	DB: And then it's just individual pieces of paper made into a book?
wrigley125	RW: Yeah. It's just a pile. There's no particular order in this. These are all prose poems in stanzas, which is not possible, but I did it. And then back in the back, there's about that maybe poems that have already been published, and there might be few more in journals. Yeah, that's my filing. That's either things that have been published and therefore might be serviceable in a collection somewhere down the road or poems that are still under construction, and then there is kind of an intermediary thing although they are all jumbled together. I don't know which is which. I have to keep... See, I don't do this on a computer—
wrigley126	DB: Yeah—
wrigley127	RW: This is my submission notebook, where I submitted things, and acceptances. I've been doing that for years. I started in 1995 and, most recently, I sent a batch—where did I send those—the Georgia Review and Smithsonian.
wrigley128	DB: Okay. So we are going to go back here. We've seen the thesis binder, and you have then, like, years of them over there, and those are years of notebooks and years of thesis binders? How are you sort of organizing them, are you just sort of sticking them in one place?
wrigley129	RW: They're not in any, well, they are in a kind of order. They go most recent to the oldest on the bottom of the pile, but they get shuffled because I go back and pull them out. It really is a kind of storage, kind of information retrieval system, which just happens to be handwritten and old fashioned, because I love going back. I can go 25 years and pull out a notebook and sometimes make discoveries, you know? "This was interesting. How come I didn't finish this one?" More often than not, I wasn't capable of finishing it. I'd gotten on to something I didn't quite have the knowhow or the resourcefulness to find a way out of. Now, either I do or I've convinced myself I do. So, I get it back out and go to work on it.
wrigley130	DB: So, then the difference between—there're boxes as well, right?	[00:58:50]
wrigley131	RW: By the time I put stuff in boxes, that's pretty well committed to book. I'm not much interested in pulling things out. But that's one of the reasons why I have this tray down here—this wooden tray where things go in, then I'll bring another one of those manuscript boxes out. It usually holds 10 reams of paper. Before these things—this pile of thing—goes in to that box, I go through it poem by poem, or draft by draft. I don't organize them but I look for something—"Oh yeah, I forgot about this." Because sometimes it will be—I know it's on the computer somewhere but I don't even remember it.
wrigley132	If I just go to Word and open, it's just chaos, it's just a whole lot of files. Some of them are not called that anymore but I can do a search. I can type a line and do a search and find it somewhere. But I would not even remember what it might have been called unless I find something in this batch before it goes in the box. I try not to lose anything but keeping track of it, it's hard. I write a lot.
wrigley133	DB: How do you name your files and your folders and how do you organize your stuff on the computer?	[01:00:09]
wrigley134	RW: Minimally.
wrigley135	DB: Minimally? First line?
wrigley136	RW: Usually just the title and sometimes I'll have—I've got, like, just a poem called "Ant," and I've got "Ant 1," "Ant 2," "Ant 3," because I'm not sure which of those drafts I prefer. I kind of like something about them all. It maybe that eventually I'll get to a final version of that poem called "Ant" and eliminate the others, or I'll print them off, put them in a box, and eliminate them from the hard drive—just get rid of them so they don't clutter up or get in the way. But I'm not all that resourceful with the computer. I think that a lot of people are much more resourceful with it as a tool. I don't tend to do a lot of organization. It's just where I store individual poems for the most part.
wrigley137	So there is a poem under a particular title and that's it. Or, there is a manuscript under a particular title. Although now—and this has got particularly strange, because so many magazines are accepting submissions online—you find you have to assemble another file consisting of three or four or five poems to send, which also gets complicated. You have this other whole set of files. So I have individual poems here—I have batches of poems that have been submitted over here and after awhile, I'll just dump those.
wrigley138	DB: Just get rid of them?
wrigley139	RW: Yeah. I still got the other, I still got the poems.
wrigley140	DB: So the poem itself is the kind of master file, so to speak?
wrigley141	RW: Yes.
wrigley142	DB: Okay. You don't ever have like "Ant 2" or "Ant Revised" or anything like that?
wrigley143	RW: No. When I lose track of—I mean, most of these are two or three drafts. That's number one, number three. Mostly these first drafts are still around here but you can get back in here and find like four, five, seven, eight.
wrigley144	Then you go back from here and there will be, you know, draft number 22. And eventually, once I decide that that's done and it goes into computer as a kind of final draft, that's just the final poem as it stands there and I'll eliminate anything else that existed along the way, just to keep the old hard drive from being cluttered up, and just to make it easier to find things when I need them.
wrigley145	DB: No, that's one of the bigger challenges, trying to figure out what was done and how you did it. It's kind of bringing us to the end of this section of questions and I have some sort of more pointed questions about computer use and correspondence. I guess overall, do you see any distinct stages in your writing process? Do you see, over the course of your career, do you see, like, distinct shifts or do you sort of see it as a gradual change, or not change, sort of staying the same at some point?	[01:03:06]
wrigley146	RW: I think there was one huge sort of shift and that was when I moved from—actually, when I changed publishers. My second two books came from the University of Illinois Press and I had this kind of story book thing that happened. I gave a reading at a writer's conference at which there were—the president of Viking was there and the director of publicity, who is now my editor, who is famous. He edited Eat, Pray, Love. He's T. C. Boyle's editor, Paul Slovak. He was there and I gave this reading and the president of Viking came up and said, "Do you have a book?" I said, "Well, I got a start on one. I'm working on one." He goes, "Send me what you got." I sent him six poems and a title of what I perceived the book—this book—and three weeks later, I had an offer and a contract in an envelope and a delivery date. I called and I got the delivery date extended to six months, and bingo I was on.
wrigley147	That's sort of been the way I've worked with Penguin ever since—when I know what the book is going to be, when I have this sort of abstract, but never the less certain sense, that this is what the book is going to be, this is how it's going to work, what's it going to revolve around. This is what the title is. I'll send the editor an email and say, "Well, this is the book. It's going to be called Anatomy of Melancholy and Other Poems. I'd like to deliver in spring of 2012." "Okay," he says, and then they send me a contract. It's a pretty good deal but it's sort of a big shift because from that point on, I've not had to worry about finding a publisher, and that's just a great luxury.
wrigley148	I cannot pay attention to so much of the sort of the professional part of it. Where I tell my students, "Your writing is your life. Your publishing is your career. You live your life, you manage your career." Sometimes those things get so tangled up and for some people, they get tangled up, I think, much to their detriment, both on the life side—maybe less so on the career side—but they get it all knotted together. Not that way. I've just been lucky enough that it hasn't worked that way for me.
wrigley149	DB: Right. What book was this?
wrigley150	RW: That was called In the Bank of Beautiful Sins. That was the first one I did with Penguin. I've done six books.
wrigley151	DB: I guess my one question with that is does it seem—I mean, I want to use the word "organic" here—was it more organic when you just kind of wrote until you had a book and then presented it? Or actually is it different now that you kind of know that you are guaranteed, basically, of publishing it?
wrigley152	RW: Yeah.
wrigley153	DB: It's sort of a dumb word for this, but it—
wrigley154	RW: No, I know what you mean. Although I think that there's something even more organic for me about having the vision of what the book is in advance even before I've written some of the poems that are going to comprise that book, because it completely changes my focus. Once I know. I mean, people ask me now, "Are you working on a book?" "No, I'm just writing poems." That's a very serious distinction for me, and I'm not in any hurry to know what the next book is. I just published one less than a year ago, right? So, April? So, it's like seven months old. It's going to be a year or two before I begin to have some sense, and even then, I might just say, "I really don't need to be any hurry." Although Random House is now Penguin Random House and nobody knows what that means.
wrigley155	Random House publishes Billy Collins and nobody else. Putnam publishes Linda Bierds and Cornelius Eady and nobody else. Penguin's got a huge list. Knopf's a got a huge list. There is one publisher need for poetry lists: what's going to happen? I have no control over that, so I'm just going to keep doing what I do, and if things change? Bummer. Either that or not, I don't know, it might be fine. But I do think that it really has been, and it was that first incidence of seeing, "I got this great opportunity. Penguin wants to publish a book of mine. I can make this move to a New York house and I don't have a book manuscript yet, but if I can promise to have this book manuscript called this in such and such date, I'll have it." And it works so well for me. My first three books were Penguin, and all won prizes, but have cooled off. That they still love me but, still, I need to win another prize, I guess. Doing the best I can.
wrigley156	DB: That's an interesting point. I mean, when you have these deadlines, is it in some ways just that much more generative? You can't really have a block.	[01:09:23]
wrigley157	RW: No. My colleague, Brandon Schrand, says, "There is no such thing as writer's block." If you call a plumber, he's not going to tell you "I got plumber's block. I can't help you." We ought to be able to be as professional about it as a plumber is. I mean, that's facetious, of course, but Bill Stafford always used to say, "If you can't write, lower your standards." That's actually tremendously good advice too, because you lower your standards and it can open up in so many different ways. You don't really lower your standards. You quit trying to second guess yourself. You quit sitting down trying to write a great poem because that's a recipe for disaster.
wrigley158	DB: Absolutely, yeah. This sort of last group of questions is more specifically about computers and some of it is going to be repetitive. So if you've answered most of it you don't need to do more, but just do me the favor of repeating yourself if you don't mind. I think we can answer some of these. You began using computers on a regular basis—?	[01:10:20]
wrigley159	RW: Mid 90s.
wrigley160	DB: Mid 90s. You started using them basically just for like as almost as a typewriter. How did that sort of change? Were there things that became part of your life that you did more with the computer?
wrigley161	RW: I really did not start actively composing and composing—sometimes the bulk of the poem. And occasionally—this has not happened too very often—the prose poems. I just pointed out that prose poem in stanzas had to be composed on the computer, the whole of it. By which I mean I set the margins and allowed the word processing to determine where the ends of the lines were, but that also required that I not sort of run the line on too far before I begin what I felt was another stanza. My students accuse me of hating prose poems. I don't hate prose poems I just don't see the point. Which is probably ignorant of me.
wrigley162	There are prose poems I love but again, I've never really been interested in writing one until I sort of gave myself this challenge. "What if I allowed the computer to determine where the lines end but still found a way to make its structure appear as though it was verse and not prose?" That's what I did.
wrigley163	I think however when I first started trying to compose or do the bulk of the composition on the computer was after I was in this little space, which probably would have been somewhere around late 2008, maybe, and I started out just on a kind of a lark. "What happens if I come up here and sit down and make a poem in lines on the word processor?" I think I was on sabbatical then, too, as I am now. That would have been 2007. I didn't have much luck. I didn't have much luck making actual poems until all of a sudden, I did. That's when I decided to sort of convert myself to part time writing long hand and part time writing on the computer, and I've been very comfortable with that ever since.
wrigley164	DB: So about 2007?
wrigley165	RW: About 2007, I think that's when I really got started on it.
wrigley166	DB: You are sort of talking about this but I guess, are there any sort of techniques or formats that you were able to—well, you already sort of said this but—I guess these are the more sort of pressing questions. Do you think your using the computer has given you advantages over previous styles of writing? Conversely, what sort of disadvantages do you see?
wrigley167	RW: I don't see any disadvantages really. I have sort of worries about what it might do but at this point I can't quite bring myself to go back, mainly because I'm having, it seems like I'm having good luck, and part of that may just be that I've got to that point in my life in my career as a writer where I know a lot of tricks. I know how to trick myself. I know how to get going. I know how to get out of a lot of tight spaces. I know how to surprise myself or how to do those things that might lead me to surprise myself. I can do that on the computer and I can do that, I can get somewhere faster or so it seems. It might be an illusion but I don't think that it is.
wrigley168	If there is a disadvantage, I don't have—let me grab one of these. I don't know when this was... 1996. You can see, I don't do—I mean, look how neat that is. There is not a lot of—then there's a little bit more crossing out and stuff. I don't know what this is. There is a big chunk cut and sometimes there is a little bit more and all those kinds of things, but I don't—the major revisions even here probably began when I started converting it to a type print document. But I miss this sometimes. I go back and look and think, "How cool is this? This is sort of an interesting thing to have."
wrigley169	I'm not producing this anymore. And I worry about that. No one knows. If you're writing in hopes that your poems will last, that makes you pretty normal, but there is no guarantee. Everybody hopes that they might write something that might last, but you just don't know. You just do the best you can. But if there is a point at which one's work draws the attention of some kind of a scholar or somebody who is willing to study what you've done, documents like that are going to be really, really interesting because it was put on the page by the hand of the poet rather than just ignited electronically.
wrigley170	DB: So, there is no thought being sort of expressed on the electronic document?
wrigley171	RW: No. Some of the margins—in my own marginalia, on my own poems, there is a big question mark, but then there's other times, there's like notes. "Tools, tools!" I just saw a couple of others—"Egad!" I'll just pick it up and I don't know what it says. I don't have my glasses on. But yeah, making notes to myself. Sometimes notes in frustration. You know, "This is idiotic." I don't know what this says, I don't have my glasses. "Jesus!" Oh yeah, "Jesus! Just saw a truck get hit by the train!"
wrigley172	DB: Oh wow. Wait, Jesus did?	[01:17:49]
wrigley173	RW: No. I did. Jesus as in "Jesus!"
wrigley174	DB: You got somebody in one of your books being Christ, right?
wrigley175	RW: Yeah. There is Lucifer Doula, when his brother, Jesus Christ was born then.
wrigley176	DB: That makes more sense. I guess this is sort of simple, maybe overly simple, but does the internet play a role in any of your writing practices? Is that connected to the internet?	[01:18:09]
wrigley177	RW: Yeah. When I built the thing in 2002 I put an Ethernet cable, buried an Ethernet cable out. I am wired out here but I try to not stay connected very often because it's such an easy distraction. On the other hand, Kim and I enjoyed Scotland so much, I've been trying to get her to apply to go to the Castle at Hawthorne. Rochelle has been there. But then it turns out you can't—they don't want you to go as a couple and there is no internet. And Kim said, "Forget it" because she's a prose writer and she said—oh, and the NSA must have a file five feet thick on her because she wrote a novel about... She's downloaded maps of all the oil fields and pipelines in the Middle East. I mean, of course they're watching her. But all that came through the internet. It's a useful thing and I still use it every now and then. If I do wind up submitting a poem... I just sent a poem—right before we left for UK—to Paul Muldoon. You know, the only way to submit to the New Yorker is electronically. They're not interested in paper anymore.
wrigley178	DB: Even all the mainstream contests now are almost exclusively—
wrigley179	RW: That's good somehow.
wrigley180	DB: It makes it a lot easier for everyone, I think.
wrigley181	RW: I think so. I don't worry about the book disappearing and going to eBooks much. And if it does, all these books of mine are going to be worth a fortune. That's the way I look at it.
wrigley182	DB: We sort of talked about this, but when do you consider a piece of writing finished? Have these machines changed your sort of option on that regard?	[01:20:20]
wrigley183	RW: I think that it's just the same as the type print. I don't consider anything complete until I print it off and then send it off into the world. But when I did the selected poems both here and in the UK, I made some changes. Not big changes, but I made some changes here and there in poems. So, I don't consider them sacred ever. But mostly, when I'm ready to put it in a book it's finished. I'm just not going to mess with it anymore.
wrigley184	I had this talk with Terrance Hayes, whom I've known for a long time, since—well, he was never a wee boy, he was nine foot tall, anyway—he didn't want to read poems out of books at Albra. And we were both in England with Dennis Nurkse and Kathy Pollard—they were really the four Americans there. I said, "Yeah, I know what you mean." But I said, "But I got this Brit book. I've got to read from the book because the publisher is here. He wants to move copies." And he goes, "Yeah, you're right." He doesn't have a British publisher, so they shipped Penguin books over there. He goes, "I want people to buy it, otherwise they're going to ship them all back." So, we had to read poems from the books, and as he said to me—and I understand this absolutely at readings—"I'm not really interested in reading those poems." It's like once that book is out there, run along. I'm interested in reading and sharing what I'm working on and sort of testing it in reading situations.
wrigley185	DB: How do you feel about the security and fixity of your files? You have the backup. Does that pretty much alleviate most of your worries and you don't—?	[01:22:14]
wrigley186	RW: Yeah, I did. On this book shelf here there is a little piece of wood that functions as a book-stop, and it didn't use to have that. I had a big marble book end which I was sitting right here, I had my feet on the desk as I was reading and I heard something slide. I just turned just to see this 12-lb marble book end just crush on the laptop. I managed to get the hard drive up and retrieve everything, the hard drive was fine. It didn't hurt it, it just killed the mechanism. I'm not too worried about it. And then I also print things off relentlessly. Every time I get through a draft, and which is why I fill up so many cartons of paper. North Texas, those people who buy so many piles of writer's papers—especially Western writers—pay by the pound. So, you feel me? You aren't going to pay me anything for my electronic files. No, I'm printing these off. The paper is heavy.
wrigley187	DB: That's funny. I guess you talked about having an external hard drive before. What was that process like and were you more concerned about crashes and what not in the earlier days of computers?
wrigley188	RW: I think I was. I'm less concerned with the Mac. Somehow it seems, you know, I never have any issues with it. Whereas PC sometimes seem to kind of odd or they would be afflicted by some bug. That worried me so I had this 3/4 TB hard drive that, every time I came out here, I just plugged it in and it was on automatic backup. It backed up all my photographs as well as music and mostly all my files. While it was plugged in, it would backup every hour. It would just backup all my Word files. I still got that, I have to plug it in but it won't work on the Mac. I have to plug it in to a PC somewhere. It's out here somewhere. Every now and then I think I need to go buy an external drive for the Mac too just so I can back things up that way but then I don't because I do have a lot of paper. I got stuff in the cloud and I got stuff in Mozy so I feel pretty sanguine about the possibilities of me being able to retrieve something.
wrigley189	Now if a forest fire rips through when I'm gone and burns up the computer and all my boxes of poems and everything, then its Mozy or the cloud and that's it. And every place in the woods in this part of Idaho burns. It's not if, it's when. It hasn't been here in a long time but could be next July, August, or September, or October. Which concerns me, yes. That does concern me and I'd especially like to move all those boxes out of the closet if I get the write offer.
wrigley190	DB: Cedar closet, too?
wrigley191	RW: I need a vault.
wrigley192	DB: I have just a few more questions. I want to talk a little bit about correspondence and then a little bit about teaching. Do you correspond much now with other writers? I guess we'll talk about teaching a little bit.	[01:25:50]
wrigley193	RW: I do, and I miss—let's see. That's a letter from Phil Levine. He wrote me because I wrote him. And I've got a file in there, probably 1.5-inch thick, of letters from Phil Levine. That's almost all letters. But I probably write 10 letters, 12 letters a year now. I've got a few people who are really willing correspondents and write back. They still like the idea of letters. And I do too—I love getting letters. It's not like getting an email. But most of the correspondence is via email anymore, and I try to print those off.
wrigley194	I've got two or three letters from Billy Collins. I've known Billy for a long time too, but our correspondence over the last decade has been entirely electronic. All these abbreviated little snippets, which are hilarious, because he's very funny, tremendously witty, and he's especially good in letters, too, as well as in poems. So we have a great deal of fun. But they're all these little short snippets, which I find myself compelled to come out and print off—the whole thread of the thing, one email at a time—to snatch a page that long. But I want to save those things. Something about saving them electronically doesn't seem like saving them on paper.
wrigley195	DB: When did email start to become the sort of primary mode of correspondence?	[01:27:35]
wrigley196	RW: Probably around the turn of the millennium, I think, for me. It was so exciting at first being able to communicate so quickly. But then you realize what's missing. I can go back and look at—I got letters from Gwendolyn Brooks, I've got letters from James Dickey, Richard Hugo. I've got this wonderful file of letters which, if a forest fire burns through, they're gone too, I'm thinking.
wrigley197	DB: Bring those in, we'll scan them for you.
wrigley198	RW: But I do. A lot of the communications. I've got a file on one of my two email addresses. I get a lot of writerly emails on the U of I account because that's the easiest one to find. I've got a Gmail account that I just kind of keep private. That's my business file, and my personal file, or my personal email. I save all those communications from other poets, other writers but I don't print all of them off. Some I do. Some seem important enough to print off, others don't.
wrigley199	DB: That's your kind of line? If it's something that you kind of hold dear, you print?
wrigley200	RW: Yeah. If I get a particularly great letter. I published a poem in the New Yorker—well, it's in that issue up there, the Obama issue with O over the Lincoln Memorial. I've never had a response to a poem like that. It's a poem called "It's a Beautiful Country." Shit—what is it called?—"Exxon." I got 140-some odd emails from a lot of people I know. A lot of poets I know of but don't really know. A lot of strangers—vets, amputees. All of them positive. And all of that stuff, you know, I print it off. I've got a whole file of just those kinds of things. Just to have that kind of response to a poem... You gotta save that in hard copy, I guess is what I'm saying. I couldn't just leave those sort of loose on the net.	[01:28:56]
wrigley201	DB: Because they are not—
wrigley202	RW: Right. They're probably no more permanent now, given that I live in place that's likely going to have a forest fire, but they seem that way to me now. And it's easy enough to look at them if I should want to, which I have not.
wrigley203	DB: Did you have letters come to you when you were younger that were not email? Did that happen?
wrigley204	RW: Oh yeah. I've always got a couple of files in there just called "Fan Mail," where you get letters from people you don't know. But also sometimes I think that's the difference between two files, is one is people I know who sent me terrific poems and such and such, or then poems from complete strangers. I got another pile called "Crank"—I've gotten like four or five anonymous letters from some person who hates me in Boise. I don't know what's up with that. But I'm really kind of delighted by them. You can always tell—there's no return address, it's from Boise. It's always like, "Oh, it's that asshole again! What have you got to say this time?"
wrigley205	DB: That's kind of exciting.	[01:31:12]
wrigley206	RW: I told Phil Levine about it and he said, "You know you're getting somewhere if people hate you."
wrigley207	DB: Yeah. Has your style of writing these correspondences—I mean, once email became part of it, did it change your letter writing, too, or has it—?
wrigley208	RW: Well I mean it made letter writing almost go away. And I wrote a lot of letters. Letters were kind of the way I warmed up when I would get into my writing space here. Or in Leonor, I had another shack very similar to this, and it was how I warmed up—I'd write a letter to somebody, sometimes to my mom, but most often it was just another poet, another poet friend. I'd write him a letter, talk to him about poems, and maybe send him a couple of poems. When email came along—there's something about putting a poem as an attachment to send to somebody that seems like more of a violation. If you put it folded in an envelope with a letter, it's a much friendlier, more intimate kind of gesture than email is.
wrigley209	DB: Yeah. I understand what you are saying, but also it's surprising because in some way that should make it much more easily available for you to write to your friends and send poems.
wrigley210	RW: And of course it does. The last few times I've sent poems off to other people—I think I sent something to David Baker a few years ago just to get some feedback, and I sent those email. Last time I sent poems to anybody else to look at who was not Kim, I think I sent them email. So it's very easy to do that, it's convenient, but it's not as intimate. Or it doesn't seem as intimate. And why is it less intimate?
wrigley211	DB: I didn't actually ask you one question. I was interested in your sort of routine. Like, do you come out here in the mornings? Is there like set times or is it whenever? Or what's your schedule like?	[01:33:07]
wrigley212	RW: It's mostly whenever I can. I have long days, I teach Tuesdays and Thursdays. When I took this job, that was my understanding—my teaching schedule will be Tuesday and Thursdays. I teach Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'm usually in by 9. I almost always have a night class, so I put in like 12-13 hours on campus Tuesday and Thursday. Wednesday tends to be my campus day when I'm just doing regular office hours and hopefully, if I'm on a committee, I can get them to schedule meetings on Wednesday. If they don't want to do Wednesday I'll do Friday, but I'd rather have, theoretically, Monday and Friday. That's when I write. I get out here between 9 and 10—it varies. It depends on what else is going on through the year. If it's cold weather, I'll build the fire, get it warmed up, and maybe do a little email work to catch up, and then get started. And go in for lunch about noonish, 12:30. Between 12:30 and 1, I come back out and stay until about 5. That's pretty much been my routine really for a long time now, for 20 years. It's a pretty good way to work. It's a luxury to have time. It's an even greater luxury to be on sabbatical, or—as I envision it when I retire—permanent sabbatical. We'll see about that. We'll see how that works.
wrigley213	DB: So, I guess the last, sort of, questions. With teaching and the sort of advent of the computer coming into your teaching, how did that sort of change your day to day life? There is much more access to you, but there is also sort of more barriers. I don't know?	[01:34:59]
wrigley214	RW: On the negative side, yeah. You're available. You are sort of at the end of this electronic tether. You can't get away from students that way, but my students tend to be pretty aware of what I'm up to. But there are certain things they just got to know about, and sometimes, "Can we meet tomorrow? I know you're coming. I know you've got office hours. I don't know if you've got any time between 2 and 3. If I can stop by could we look at these two poems?" There is an attachment with a couple of poems.
wrigley215	That's the downside—that they don't have to call you, they don't have to make an appointment or come by. They can just ask you and there you are at home, and you respond, and I do. It's also great though, because they can do that and it's a whole lot more convenient. "Sure. I've got the poems now. I could read them tonight. I'll talk to you about them tomorrow, come in at 2:30." So it's both. Mostly I think it's positive. Mostly I think it's good. I'm on sabbatical, and Kim is not on sabbatical. She worked out being gone for 13 days while we went to the UK. When we were at Aldborough, all she did was correspondence with her students. She was doing it, like, while we were there for four days. She did nothing but. She never did get to see much of Aldborough because of that and everybody else at the festival thought my wife was a myth because she only came out once.
wrigley216	DB: Do you see like the sort of—I mean call them what you will, but—the more computer adept, those who have been raised, the "digital natives" or whatever, have they sort of changed your relationship to computers? Their sort of comfort and use of it, has that sort of done anything to your own teaching or your own sort of writing in that way?	[01:36:50]
wrigley217	RW: Teaching maybe in so far as... What I love, especially in graduate classes—especially in things like the techniques class, which I'm teaching in the spring in which we'll be talking about a different volume of contemporary poetry every week—we'll have a good 2.5-3-hour discussion about this book of poems. How the book works, how the individual poems work, how this particular poet does his or her work. It'll be great, it'll be invigorating and I'll come home and I'll immediately think of like 37 different things I should have said or ways to connect things that they said and sort of bind to our conversation together. And the email—I'll just do a class email and just, with bullets, say "Here's this and this and this." I can add two or three links—the things they need to consider.
wrigley218	That was one of the great things about the internet. I taught—I don't remember what the class was called. It was an American Lit class. English 570. Studies in American and English literature, I think it was. But anyway, 20th Century. And I taught Hart Crane. I taught "The Bridge" and they both despised Hart Crane because it's not easy and it's a failed epic, God bless him. But we had a wonderful discussion about what qualifies his failure and ambition and so forth, and I was able to send them the follow up email that tried to bind the class discussion together with all sorts of references and links to other things they could read about Crane. I mean, it's a great pedagogical tool that way.
wrigley219	DB: Right. I think I've exhausted it. Unless you have any other—? I think we've covered pretty much everything I want to cover and we have a good sense of your writing process. Is there anything that you—I mean you're writing letters in the earlier part of your career to get warmed up was sort of interesting to me. Do you do anything specifically to get warmed up now? Do you read?	[01:39:04]
wrigley220	RW: Actually I write sonnets.
wrigley221	DB: You write sonnets?
wrigley222	RW: Yeah. I probably have 100 sonnets. I think I've published 2 in books. But I love the form. The form is very friendly to me and they're mostly sort of hybridized. I like the Italian octave. I like ABBA, ABBA, and the kind of Shakespearian couplet at the end, or at least a kind of couplet and rhyme at the end. I'll sit down and I'll spend the first two hours just kind of messing around with a sonnet. I don't really need—it's like with a sonnet, I don't need an idea. I just start putting words on paper. It will have to do with the frost, it will have to do with the—I think it's gone. Anyway, I can see sort of the paper, but a bald-faced Hornet's nest about this big around up on the tree, and I think I've gotten three or four what I call "wind sprint sonnets" out of that thing. Just looking up and watching the hornets going about. Which, at some point this winter, I need to take the shotgun out and blast it out of the tree, out of the way, because next year it'll be this big. So, I don't want that.
wrigley223	DB: Where did you write those down on? In a notebook or are they—?
wrigley224	RW: Well no, I just sat down on a computer and started writing them down.
wrigley225	DB: Those are in the computer?
wrigley226	RW: Yeah. It loosens me up, get things going and sometimes I'll get halfway into it, I'll get 13 lines into one and then I'll feel a sort of desperation and I'll just finish it off somehow with a rhyme. It's not a successful poem. Like I said, I've only used—if I've got a 100, I've only used two. But it gets the wheels turning, and then I can turn here and I can start writing down lines. And it's often, not always, but something, some phrase or word out of that little sonnet—"wind sprint" as I called it—will be like, "Oh wait, there's a real poem in that phrase." So, I'll start from that. It's great. Great fun too. I do love sonnets. I should probably try to find them all. No, I won't. It's in the boxes, in the boxes, in the boxes.
wrigley227	DB: The future scholars will have many chores.
wrigley228	RW: Yeah, see if you can find them and see how many of them don't suck. I think there's two.
wrigley229	DB: There's two maybe. Thank you very much.
wrigley230	RW: It's my pleasure, Devin. It's great to get to meet you and—
wrigley231	DB: Yeah. I'm sorry I've been sort of reclusive I guess.
wrigley232	RW: No, it's okay. You've got, like, a job and stuff, too.
wrigley233	DB: Yeah, I do. A 9-5 and all that.
wrigley234	RW: Yeah.
wrigley235	DB: I think it'll be okay.

Interview with all subjects

Filter by topic:

4033 of 4033 rows
(click a missing row to make it appear)

Reset Filters

4033 of 4033 rows (click a missing row to make it appear)

4033 of 4033 rows
(click a missing row to make it appear)